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An Ought from an Is

Discussion in Everything & Anything started by epi1to10000, Jan 22, 2013

  1. Feb 4, 2011
    Posts
    How do you get a moral ought from from what is (exists/being) http://www.philosophybro.com/2012/01/mailbag-monday-is-ought-problem.html

    Post Humean skepticism-> We know that exists in the universe in a way that is different than moral knowledge

    Kant-> (synthetic/analytic) (a priori/a posteriori)


    [IMG]

    [IMG]
    http://marklint.com/podcast/Prolegomena_Diagram2.png

    This has been a problem in ethics ever since the 1700‘s and in order to address this problem governmental theorists have used the idea of human nature, social contracts, and intuition pumps to try to come to an agreement.

    Kantian Intuition Pump-> Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law. http://www.philosophybro.com/2011/03/immanuel-kants-groundwork-for.html

    Utilitarian Intuition Pump -> Greatest good for the greatest number of people. http://www.philosophybro.com/2011/01/john-stuart-mills-what-utilitarianism.html

    Rawlsian Intuition Pump -> Viel of Ignorance, Reflective Equilibrium, Difference Principle http://www.philosophybro.com/search/label/John Rawls

    Nozican Intuition Pump-> Wilt Chamberlain Economy http://www.philosophybro.com/search/label/libertarianism

    Modern Evangelical Christian Intuition Pump -> What would Jesus do?


    The first problem is to find what truly is, the next problem is how do we derive moral knowledge from it.
    epi1to10000, Jan 22, 2013 Last edited by epi1to10000, May 3, 2013
  2. Apr 1, 2012
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    sir, whatever you have been smoking... can I please have some?
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Feb 4, 2011
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    • May 15, 2011
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      Nerds, nerds everywhere! :Frantic:
    • Feb 4, 2011
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      Indeed. We are going to come after Dirtbag in the night, cut out your brain, stick it in a nutrient vat, hook up our electrodes, and fuck w/ your mind.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat

      Edited for gender neutrality
      epi1to10000, Jan 22, 2013 Last edited by epi1to10000, Jan 22, 2013
    • Apr 12, 2012
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      I think dirtbag might be a girl? Dunno, sorry if I'm wrong lol
    • May 15, 2011
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      My head agrees but my dick doesn't seem to be on the same page. Fuck you dick!


      :shock: :hypnotized:

      Edit: Also, just a note, but if you want to see if someones a/s/l, click their name, should give a pop-up with the details they have provided.
      Dirtbag, Jan 22, 2013 Last edited by Dirtbag, Jan 22, 2013
    • Jun 11, 2012
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      Discrete mathematics tackles these
    • Feb 4, 2011
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      How so? How do you create moral (non-natural) simples as discrete and/or proper sets? How is number the same kind of knowledge as moral knowledge, or at least how does moral knowledge emerge from number?
      epi1to10000, Jan 22, 2013 Last edited by epi1to10000, Jan 22, 2013
    • Jun 11, 2012
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      Sets, different approaches, breaking down a sentence to prove it's validity. Also Contradiction and Tautology are heavily used in Discrete Mathematics. You could take a proposition and prove it by negating it or disprove it.
      For Example let's take a proposition like "Washington is the capital of Canada". Of course that sentence is wrong but can you actually prove it by looking at it. Thus say that:
      Now if we negate it, ¬p. We would have:
      Albeit this is a really low level simple explanation but you can use Discrete Math and Logical Approaches to achieve a similar thing. You can take a problem, break it down and assign it a letter of A, B, C and use a truth table to find the a Tautology Contradiction, or a Limbo State (where it can be both truth and false)

      Edit; For those interested in Discrete Mathematics, it's the most funnest of math next to Differential. It's more focused on the approach to solving a question than to computing it. Here's a quick intro pdf presentation easy to read and comprehended
      http://www.cs.laurentian.ca/jdompierre/html/MATH2056E_W2011/cours/s1.1_propositional_logic_BW.pdf
    • Feb 24, 2011
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      Luffaren is confused with confussle :struggle:?
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • Feb 4, 2011
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        p = Washington is the capital of Canada"
        ¬p=Washington is not the capital of Canada.
        Are definitional statements of things in the physical world.

        Are you saying all moral statements are definitional statements of objects in the real world.
        p = Killing is bad
        ¬p= Killing is not bad
        Are real objects? I can verify the location of Canada and/or Washington empirically.....

        I like Wittgenstein for what is but how can I transform atomic facts into moral knowledge; or are you saying you can only analyze the real objects included in moral statements?
        epi1to10000, Jan 22, 2013 Last edited by epi1to10000, Jan 22, 2013
      • May 5, 2012
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        The fuck is this -_- im fucking confussled and now i need an explanation.
      • Apr 12, 2012
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        :shame:
      • May 15, 2011
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        Also, you can quote specific parts of a post with haste by selecting the text with your mouse. Like so:

        [IMG]

        Just thought maybe you didn't know cause you quoted my entire post and it was a bit confusing to look at. :)
      • Apr 12, 2012
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        Lol I didn't know, thanks for the info. But I was quoting your whole post cuz both things applied to me :smile: Usually I'll edit posts I quote so only the relevant part is quoted.

        edit: omg you're insane - you literally liked this post within 15 seconds haha
        • Like Like x 1
        • Feb 4, 2011
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          I found this brohiem who is fucking brilliant and can distill shit down so don't TLDR me bro.

          http://www.philosophybro.com/2012/01/mailbag-monday-is-ought-problem.html
          MONDAY, JANUARY 9, 2012

          Mailbag Monday: Is-Ought Problem


          Mailbag Monday: A weekly segment that covers readers' questions and concerns about all things Philosophy, Bro, and Philosophy Bro that don't quite fit anywhere else. Send your questions to philosophybro@gmail.com with 'Mailbag Monday' in the subject line.

          --

          Alex writes,
          will you explain the is-ought problem and its implications?
          Thanks, bro.

          Aw yeah, the is-ought problem. Shit's classic, bro, goes back to Hume, and it goes something like this:


          Sometimes, when I'm talking ethics with my bros, they describe the way the world is. They're like, "That chair is over there. The bar closes at 4AM. The sky is blue." and I'm like, "Yup. Yup." How could I disagree? These are obviously true things. But then suddenly they're like, "Therefore, we should go on a roadtrip tomorrow." And I'm like, "woooooooooah!" How the fuck did they get from how things are, to how things should be? Those aren't the same at all. If I asked, "Where should we go?" and you told me where we already are, that wouldn't answer my fucking question.

          Let's say my bro Ice and I are drinking. Ice is about to do some stupid drunken shit (as he's wont to do) and I say the following:

          "You are so drunk that you could die if you tried that."

          That's an is-statement. It just describes something about Ice and the thing he's about to do. Maybe you're thinking he should not do this fucking thing. But why not? "Because he'll die." So what? "Well, you shouldn't do stuff that will kill you." AHA! See, that's not an is-statement. It's an ought-statement, which describes how Ice should proceed. Before we could say that Ice shouldn't do this stupid fucking thing, we needed to say he shouldn't do stupid fucking things in general.

          People typically accept that statement, and in fact, so many people accept that statement that it seems obvious, and you might miss that it's hiding in there. You might just gloss right over it.

          Sometimes, though, the hidden ought isn't so widely accepted.

          Next morning, Ice and I are lying around on couches, nursing hangovers, and we have this conversation:

          PB: "Dude, I am so hungover." (Is-statement)
          Ice: "uuuuuugh."
          PB: "I seriously feel like I'm going to throw up." (Is-statement)
          Ice: "nnnnn..."
          PB: "Also, I spent all the cash I had last night." (Is-statement)
          Ice: "Shhh..."
          PB: "Dude, we ought to never get that drunk again." (Ought-statement)
          Ice: "...Wait, what?"

          How did I get from those first three things to that last one? I've only described my hangover. That's all I've done. No matterhow fucking miserable my hangover is, it doesn't support my conclusion that I should never drink that much again; maybe I love being hungover. (I don't.) But I accept something like the following premise, the way-too-drunk premise: "You should never get so drunk that you spend all your cash and end up super hungover the next day." BOOM. Another ought-statement. Ice is confused because he loves getting that drunk, and is willing to put up with the hangover and relative poverty. He does not accept the way-too-drunk premise, so we disagree on how we ought to act, even though wetotally agree on how things are right now.

          The is-ought problem arises because of a particular property of logic called conservation, which (roughly) says that whatever your conclusion is, it has to be in your premises in some form or another. It doesn't have to be obvious - in fact, often it isn't - but it is, in some form, lurking down there. (This is a really rough gloss on conservation, so bear with me here.) It's a feature that makes logic really fucking great - it tells us exactly what is and isn't supported by our premises. We want conservation in logic. Conservation is our friend. When someone objects, "Wait, your conclusion isn't supported by your premises!" she is actually objecting that I've snuck something into my conclusion that isn't anywhere in my premises, which is a no-no.

          So if you start with only descriptions of how things are right now, then you can't decide anything about the way things shouldbe. You need oughts in your premises to get them in your conclusions.

          Occasionally, bros invoke the is-ought problem to argue that there is no morality at all or some similar such claim. Those bros are fucking doing it wrong. It turns out that ethical theories just are attempts to provide ways to move from is to ought. For example, utilitarianism says, at bottom, that we ought to act such that pleasure (or whatever is "good") is maximized, something like, "Whichever act creates the most pleasure is the act that you ought to do." See how that gets you from is toought? So you know some things about which act creates the most pleasure, your is-statement; then you've got the utilitarian rule, which is an ought-statement, and that moves you to your conclusion, that you should do that act. So the is-ought problem doesn't mean there is no morality.

          It is, however, a problem for deciding which moral system is the right one. The utilitarian rule is an ought-statement, too; so it helps us choose other ought-statements, but how did we get it in the first place? Usually, through some hand-waving. When J.S. Mill argues for utilitarianism, he's mostly like, "I mean, c'mon! Who doesn't like pleasure, amirite? Obviously we should maximize pleasure and minimize pain. Duh." And when Kant argues for the Categorical Imperative, he's like, "I mean, it comes from a good will, and obviously a good will can't do anything bad! So, you know, act with that shit." Some ethical theories are even more upfront about their hand-waving: W.D. Ross argues for a bunch of duties like charity and justice and stuff, and he argues for them by just saying that justice and charity and stuff are obviously things we should value.

          So the is-ought problem is a problem of metaethics, the philosophy of how ethics works. Some philosophers have tried to cross the divide by giving arguments about how we can get from an is to an ought; some just argue for certain baselineoughts like charity and go from there. For example, maybe it just is the case that killing is bad. Immoral, even. Then weought not kill. That was simple! "But why shouldn't we be immoral?!" Because that's what "immoral" means. It means don't do this fucking thing; it should not be done. (To be honest, the meaning of "x is immoral" is also hotly debated, but I'm not going to get into that here.) The point is, it might be that "x is a thing that ought not be done" might be an is-statement thatalso gives us an ought. That's the route that tries to cross the divide.

          It's a super-interesting problem, and lots of really, really fucking cool work is being done on it. Ultimately, the problem shows us that finding out the right thing to do isn't as simple as we'd like it to be. Damn.
        • Jun 18, 2012
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          Ok so english not being my native language makes it quite hard to comprehend this, unlike the normal chatter, but the 2 words my mind keeps jumping to are: Renee Descartes. Also I like this kind of conversations and although not capable of understanding everything I like pretending that, unlike you guys previously saying A=A, A doesn't have to be A at all and can equal anything we like.