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Clarification

Discussion in CS:S Zombie Escape started by Andrew, Jan 15, 2013

  1. Apr 12, 2012
    Posts
    http://plaguefest.com/threads/brett.12957/
    http://plaguefest.com/threads/abuse.12701/
    http://plaguefest.com/threads/airacceleration-bhop-kick-without-direct-warning.12665/page-3

    Recently, there's been a large amount of confusion about air-accelerate and bhopping (and even multiple jumps in a row without strafing). The threads I referenced are just some of the recent ones, and it doesn't seem like there is a consensus as to what exactly is against the rules. As I understand it:

    - bhopping, using strafe while in the air and making 2 or more jumps, is illegal. But is it illegal if you do not gain speed, like in Tony's thread?
    - jumping multiple times in a row, without strafing (only holding W and hitting jump) is illegal if you gain speed. Is it legal if you simply keep your speed?
    - jumping more than twice in a row on a downslope is illegal, if you gain speed. Is it legal if you do not gain speed?
    - is double jumping up a slope (the earth spawn on mako, for instance, when you can double jump the pipes) illegal? Note - you do not gain speed doing this.
    - is jumping after a boost (reactor floor on mako, where nearly everyone double jumps) illegal?

    The line seems to be drawn at: "do not do anything that gains speed, except if its a boost/trigger in the map"? If so, can we change or update the rules to actually say this? Bhopping and simply jumping multiple times (even if you gain speed) are two vastly different things. It would help players to know exactly what they are not supposed to do, and it would cut down on the amount of time admins need to spend warning/kicking/etc.
  2. Apr 9, 2007
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    The current rule appears to be if you jump twice, regardless of gained speed, you're insta-banned on the spot. A few admins warn, and that's wonderful.

    We're in the process of correcting this internally.
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Apr 12, 2012
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      Oh good, that was the whole point of this thread :grin:
    • Oct 20, 2012
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      I think pro @Wrongle got the plugin fixed so only admins can only bhop. (Well only Haplo)
    • Jun 15, 2012
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      what do you mean by this :crying:
    • Oct 20, 2012
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      People said that the only 1 that can bhop is dr. kleiner and haplo
    • Jun 15, 2012
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      plugin was tested on a private/training server?
    • Oct 20, 2012
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    • May 31, 2012
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      Aprz prepared a guide for you below. Aside from his console commands during demos to angle the camera, my decisions are similarly made to his. I watch and I demo. After learning how to bhop and spectating so many people bhopping there exists a clear cut difference between what is jumping and what is bhopping; as he has concisely put it, bhopping is a rhythmic movement used to strafe jump continuously and to gain speed.

      As for deciding whether the person qualifies for escalation becomes the sole discretion of the admin watching, especially if the admin has a demo which is used to support their case. The rules state no bunnyhopping. Even though some admins, including myself, may be lenient under limited conditions does not mean that bunnyhopping is allowed; if you get kicked while bhopping in an enclosed zombie cage, according to the rules, the admin made the correct decision. Until the rules have been changed or provide more details, this will always be the case.

      To assure you that this topic is very well known, the short time that I have been here and even shorter period as an admin, I have seen this discussion at least a billion times.
      Joshy, Jan 16, 2013 Last edited by Joshy, Jan 16, 2013
    • Mar 26, 2012
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      TL;DR Jumping down a set of stairs does not mean you're bhopping, crouch jumping does not mean bhopping, multiple jumps does not mean you are bhopping. It's a specific technique that may be difficult for some admins to distinguish from bhopping-mimics so I expect some people will be falsely punished. I listed the signs that we'll make me think you're a bhopper and some of the procedures I'll go through before escalating things. Whether it's a couple of hops or not, advancing or not, the rules right now aren't specific for that, and I believe it's at our own discretion to punish based on what we believe (it's really up to management, but since it's been controversial and no decision has been really made, I try to do whatever other admins are comfortable with or try to use sound judgement). Often players will not admit that they were bhopping even when there is a pile of evidence that says otherwise.

      I think the best way to answer this question is to tell you how some of us catch bhoppers. I think people getting punished for crouch jumping is an issue, but I think we have more issues with people denying that they were bhopping even though it's pretty clear they were. I'll also mention some of our thoughts in regard to bhopping a little and whether they are advancing or not.

      When I look for bhoppers, there are common spots I'll start to spectate at: downstairs of Mako Reactor after the elevator, Predator at the beginning of the map on 3rd and 4th level, 4th level of Predator when you get beamed up into the space shuttle and then jump into that hallway that makes you question whether somebody slipped something into your Coke or not, etc.

      [IMG]

      [IMG]

      If I notice a player that regularly gets caught for bhopping log in, I might start to spectate them too. In admin chat, we'll let each other know "(admin only) Aprz: Hey, player A just logged in. He's a known bhopper." so if we see something suspicious, that player might be the first person we start to watch. We document our bans so if the person has been banned for it before, they'll likely get an immediate ban for it again if they do it again. If I can't figure out who's bhopping and it's a problem, I will start to toggle through each player for 15-30 seconds until I notice who, or just wait at one of those spots like I mentioned earlier and try to catch them there.

      I record a demo every round I play. It's excessive, but its easy to do, and it doesn't take much space on my laptop at all if I regularly clear it out. Demos are useful for trying to figure out who the bhopper (and other types of rule breakers e.g. griefer) is. Even if you don't aim at them to get their name, there are other tricks to get them. I've busted players who I saw doing something e.g. shooting the doors at LOTR_Moria and then they throw a grenade, and I can see in the lower left hand corner with their name "Aprz: (RADIO): Fire in the hole!" or whatever it says, lol, or a zombie was bhopping and stabbed somebody so I see their name in the upper right hand corner. I can use sv_cheats 1 to do something pseudofancy things like mat_wireframe 1 to watch them through walls in the demo, which is how I catch some players breaking rules. Another handy thing with demos is you can actually manipulate the camera! So if I was unlucky and couldn't aim my pointer at the rule breaker e.g. the bhopper, I'll replay the demo, sv_cheats 1, and then start moving the camera around:

      Code:
      record name_of_demo - start recording a demo, it's saved in steam C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\<user>\counter-strike source\cstrike\ as name_of_demo.dem. I have a shortcut of this in my start menu.
      stop - stop recording the demo
      demoui - one interface you can use to speed/slow/pause/stop demos or skip to a certain "tick".
      demoui2 - same as demoui, but also has a thing where you can use your mouse to click to which tick rather than having to type a number or speed to that tick you want to be at.
      map - load a map you want to play e.g. map ze_ffvii, a list will appear with that beginning, and I'll select the map.
      sv_cheats 1 - required to do things like noclip, god, thirdperson, etc. when you load a map (not in pF).
      thirdperson - firstperson is what you normally play in where you can see your gun and arm, thirdperson is watching over their shoulder. Gotta be in thirdperson to move the camera in demos.
      cam_idealdistright 0 (-150 to 150) - Positive moves the camera to the right, negative moves the camera to the left. (like using a and d normally)
      cam_idealdistup 0 (-150 to 150) - Positive moves the camera up, negative moves the camera down. (like jumping up and down, but without returning to your previous position)
      cam_idealpitch 0 (>0) - Will rotate the camera on x axis to look down (like using your mouse to look down)
      cam_idealyaw 0 (-150 to 150) - Will rotate the camera on the y axis (like using your mouse to look to your right or left)
      cl_showpos 1 - will show their speed
      mat_wireframe 1 (0, 1, 2, 3) - see through walls and models.
      Record a demo, and try these console commands. It's pretty cool in my opinion.

      Those are the things I use to aim the pointer at them, and then I'll try at multiple parts of the demo to get their name to confirm it was them and not somebody else (the names somewhat overlap sometimes/not sure if it's somebody close by or if it's them).

      I think an important thing we should be doing prior to punishing a bhopper (at least prior to kicking) is spectate them through firstperson view, and type into console cl_showpos 1. If they are running forward, they'll get speeds about 250. If they are strafing, they'll get 250-270 (usually 260). If they are just jumping, they'll usually slowdown. If they are bhopping, they'll get >260 at least.

      [IMG]
      cl_showpos 1

      One thing that I'd like to see some of our admins do is play ZM and learn how to bhop in there. In my opinion, bhopping is a lot fun, and once you learn how to do it, there is a clear difference between bhopping and just jumping. There is like a rhythmic movement to it that sway side to side, and you kinda glide in the first person perspective. I hate to admit this, but before learning how to bhop in ZM, I couldn't tell the difference between bhopping or just jumping in ZE. Watching youtube of bhop scripts and people bhopping in general will also help. This is important because speed isn't the only determining factor. Sometimes in maps, you might gain speed from the map itself e.g. Surf Facility everywhere, beginning of Paranoid and some triggers in it, shoes in Holmes Escape.

      Since it's such a specific technique, I don't feel like you can accidentally do it either like some players claim. My mouse wheel is binded so when I scroll up/move the wheel up, I start doing multiple crouch jumps (that's one way to bhop, you need to move the mouse side to side a little, and hold a or d, not w). I actually regularly use my mouse wheel to jump (not space), and it's not bhopping cause I am still running forward with w and I am not moving the mouse pointer to move to the side.

      I try to warn by name (often warning by name alone is enough to make the player stop bhopping), also base my decision on whether a player actually advances or not, and how much they advance. The rule doesn't specify (ie it's pretty much no bhopping period, bhopping a little versus a lot is punished equally per our guidelines), but since I am much better at catching bhoppers now, I am familiar with a lot of players, familiar with the maps, I like to think that I can make that decision on whether to escalate (warn -> kick -> ban) things or not (ie it's at my discretion). Sometimes even if players aren't advancing while bhopping, or aren't bhopping much (e.g. a couple of jumps), we might not be able to catch who's ruining the rounds by bhopping so I'll start to punish every bhopper regardless because I am trying to decrease the number of bhoppers and narrow it down to who is ruining the game. This might take several rounds. You will still get a warning with your name, or a generic warning with no name because we can't catch who is doing it, the kicked, and then banned. Hopefully you'll get the idea before being banned.

      Admins have discussed this a million times, and it's split between whether we should bother looking for people or punishing bhopping without advancing (e.g. zombie in the beginning of the map, CTs are at the end about to finish, that zombie has no chance of catching up, or the zombie is stuck in a cage like at Mako Reactor or Voodoo Island). Some of us are worried about people trying to take advantage of us being lenient or do the monkey see monkey do phenomenon where they see bhopping in a cage, and think it's okay to do it to catch up to the humans. We are also concern that it will be more difficult to enforce if we have to start debating about whether the person had any chance of advancing or using it to their advantage or would it ruin the balance of the game in any way. Of course other people think that we should just try to use some judgement to determine whether they should be punished or not. Cons obviously with this is that it's not gonna be always clear, it's not black and white like saying no bhopping period. Right now, the rule is pretty black and white which is "no bhopping" so again not even a couple of jumps, in a cage, or whatever cause admins can still punish for this.

      If you do get banned, we will often include a demo and comments like "While playing ze_Shroom, player was warned for bhopping via admin chat and mic. He acknowledge 'sorry'. A few minutes later again, he did it again, and was kicked. He reconnected, and started bhopping again, and was banned. Admin A, B, and C were online. Demo attached." And sometimes those other admins e.g. A, B, and C might also comment "I was online and witnessed this."

      Even when I've done everything: saw them do it several times without watching them in firstperson, I watch them through firstperson mode and cl_showpos 1, I warn them by name, kick them, ban them, and I have demos of all of this, they still argue "Player A: I wasn't bhopping! Admin is a dumbass!" Sometimes people will include their friends "Player A Friend: Aprz is a bhopping nazi!" Lol.

      Until that plugin is fixed, I hope this will let you guys know how some of us watch for bhoppers, tricks we use to catch them and confirm who it is, and why we sometimes aren't consistent (e.g. kicked somebody for bhopping in a cage as a zombie one day versus not kicking them another day). I am still a newer admin compare to others, but I hope that other admins might look at this and use the same tricks and guidelines I do for players bhopping. I think the biggest issues with some of our admins right now in regard to punishing for bhopping is they cannot tell the difference between bhopping and jumping, which they should watch bhopping youtube videos and learn to bhop in ZM, and then players also not trusting us believing players saying that they didn't bhop.
      • Informative Informative x 2
      • Like Like x 1
        Emily, Jan 16, 2013 Last edited by Aprz, Jan 16, 2013
      • Apr 9, 2007
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        Is this still a problem?
        • Like Like x 1
        • Jul 4, 2011
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          Is bhopping allowed? If not, then yes. I witnessed a few people get kicked for useless double jumps.
          • Agree Agree x 1
          • Apr 9, 2007
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            I guess I should clarify, can you still actually bhop? I'm not really concerned with admin foolery at the moment (that's not my domain).
            • Like Like x 1
            • Funny Funny x 1
            • Dec 6, 2011
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              Yes, people are still bunnyhopping and @GETTING BOOSTS, therefore it is bunnyhopping....
            • May 5, 2012
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              Yea... But wouldnt you think that the reason its illegal is because you get an unfair advantage?
            • Mar 20, 2012
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              What I am concerned about is that I see maybe sometimes 5-10 bhopper because none of the admins care about them, from time to time. Then an admin kicks/bans somebody, who just 1jumped down or gained speed in an useless area, where it wouldnt matter anyway...This is just unfair, either u do it right and kick/ban all or u do nothing ...
              Its just easier 2 see somebody bhopping in an area where people are holding or whatever, for example Brett kicked me once in mako in the bossfightzone where u get boosted by the push and u can very easy jump one or 2 times more 2 reach the core earlier, but if there are already humans it wouldnt matter for a normal mapprogression, because timetriggers are already active.
              If u kick people there u should kick people at paranoid spawn too..
              edit
              wahh 2 late , ok^^
            • Jul 4, 2011
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              Why are you tagging me?

              On topic: You can still bunnyhop, I do notice some improvement however.
              • Informative Informative x 1
              • Dec 6, 2011
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                Exactly my point.
              • Apr 9, 2007
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                Welp! Thanks for the info.
              • Nov 11, 2011
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                I do know that ZM is capped at 345 vel while ZMP seems to have no restrictions whatsoever. ZE still has problems.