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Hiding with 'important map items'

Discussion in CS:S Zombie Escape started by Tony Montana, Apr 17, 2012

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  1. Jul 4, 2011
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    Please, before replying, read the whole post and try to understand my point of view on this whole thing.

    Yes, I'm bringing this up once again. Rule 13 on the ZE server states "Do not hide important map items. This means you can not hide materia (Mako Reactor) or other items in order for humans to die on purpose. You're welcome though to hide them from spammers". As you all may or may not know, I'm not big fan of this rule. First off, a 'materia' is not required to win the map and doesn't come with instructions which says where and how you must use it when picked up. I think it's wrong to assume that when someone goes hiding with a materia they want the whole team to die in order to make the win somewhat 'epic', this is rarely the case. Let's say someone who knows how to use materias has one but dies on the way, if that's not considered griefing, why does hiding? He let his team down by dying, subtracting one materia or 'important map item', maybe he died on purpose, who knows?

    Now, say the human/zombie ratio is 1:5 at the final part of the map (10 humans, 50 zombies) where you need to hold the zombies for 35 seconds in order to make it, most of you like me would agree that the humans would be doomed at this point and should just surrender, BUT, say one of the ten people left has a materia and knows a way to win, why not go for it, right? It's not like he can tell every human to do exactly what he plans as it does take some skill. So instead of just standing there awaiting death, why not give it a chance? The others would of course die, they all would either way but you can't really blame the materia user for not extending their 'lifetime' by a few seconds for actually trying to win.

    Plaguefest is the only server with this rule in place, it just doesn't make any sense. Some people do go hiding when the humans actually does have a chance as a team but I don't see that happen very often anymore (outside of PlagueFest). Why do we have to punish people using materias in this particular way? Is it really necessary to limit the maps gameplay like this by having the rule in place?

    That is all. Thank you for reading.
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Feb 1, 2011
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      Gotta agree with you here, Tony. People don't usually hide or run away with materias to grief. The only time I've seen it done is when you used to do it in order to win the round (before the rule was implemented). It's quite amazing and I never personally had a problem with it when you used to do it - you often turned certain failure into a win, a quite epic win too. I've honestly never seen someone employ this tactic with the goal of getting the team killed - it has always seemed like a last ditch effort when there is no other option.
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      • Jul 20, 2010
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        The problem is when this rule was made, you had people hiding with key materias even if the ratio was in favor of humans they would hide and it was typically 2-3 people the with key materias as in wind or grav sometimes ice. Most of the people that did it are point whores for lack of a better word they like getting those 100 points for stopping Seph's attack on their own to boost their gametracker score. Then you'd also have people who'd just hide with materia simply to troll the team. How would someone dying from a zombie with a materia be griefing if they are running with the team/defending and a zombie gets lucky and tags them. I think some people are mad because they can't do solo wins to boost their ego/score.
        • Agree Agree x 1
        • Nov 30, 2011
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          I Must Agree with Dillinger and Tony on this. People dont hide with materias to make their team die. They only hide if they know its the only option left to win the round. As in a 1:5 ratio of humans and zms.
          • Agree Agree x 1
          • Jan 5, 2012
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            I totally agree with you Tony. Sometimes, the only option is to hide with materia. It's impossible to defend in pF when there's a 1:5 ratio, with limited ammo, the amount of zombies there are and respawn. Also, it's very hard to defend at the end of extreme 2, since some people are not shooting at all. Just like predator, you need a good number like 20 to kill sephiroth at the end.
            • Agree Agree x 1
            • Dec 6, 2011
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              I understand your point Tony, but it has come down to the try-hards that play Mako religiously, and purposely hide with something like wind or gravity until everybody is dead, then come out to win the round by their selves. Most likely for the attention of being the only one alive, or some other obnoxious purpose. The rule should stay where it is, but it doesn't mean we should punish somebody the second they run off with a materia. If it's somebody like one of the Mako try-hards that hide the instant the elevator reaches the top, and then come running after everybody is dead every damn time, then they need to be punished. There's really only a few who actually do this, but I have them in mind. I think we've talked about this before in-game, but I'm not 100% sure. There's no problems coming from the rule being in place, the only issues are the select handful that do this repetitively and on-purpose.

              Basically this applies for my term "Mako try-hards", and them only, I've yet to punish for this rule because I haven't witnessed any of those select few do it anymore. Tony and Dill, I agree with you guys 100%, but we should keep the rule in place for insurance, just in case more people decide to come along and break the rule.
              • Agree Agree x 1
              • Feb 9, 2012
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                i understand where badgruiel is going with his statement and i can see that actually happening and it would suck, but then again it's no different than losing a person with that materia either.
                This really shouldn't be a rule on its own but rather under ''griefing''. Like Tony said, what would be the difference between someone hiding with a materia and using it at the last second compared to someone who picks up a materia and ends up dying. There are no materia required to advance on any part of the stage, they are only situational and used to help.
                The only thing we should be punishing involving items is when it's used to intentionally kill teammates : (Earthing your whole team so zombies can catch up, using gravity on spots where you cannot pass, using wind to knock zombies closer to your teammates)

                Point: Someone not using a materia/hiding it is no different than not having it at all.
                • Like Like x 1
                • Jul 20, 2010
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                  I've banned/kicked my fair share of those Mako try-hards that always come on when mako is up. They will always hide with key materias no matter what the ratio is from human to zombie. If you want to play a game that requires lone-wolfing it then play COD or something else. Last I checked ze was a team based mode around teamwork or am I missing something here?
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                  • Zing! Zing! x 1
                  • Jul 4, 2011
                    Posts
                    I have to disagree with you. Back when hiding was allowed I did it when I felt there was no other way, to carry the team to the next level, not to be a 'point whore' or anything. One materia is always one materia which is why I compared hiding with someone dieing while defending or whatever, if it's lost it's lost no matter how they died. There are so many ways of 'trolling the team', actually trying to win is not one of them and I think it's wrong to assume one does it in order to 'boost their ego/score', it may be the case but it's not worth making a rule preventing it.
                    • Agree Agree x 2
                    • Mar 18, 2012
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                      No one use mako to farm points on gametracker, winning 1 round of extreme 2 only give you enough points for 1 round of predator on any difficulty. A lot of players rather sacrifice themselves for the player hiding with the materia when they know its the only tactic left that will allow you to win. No one enjoy repeating hard mode or extreme mode again.
                      • Agree Agree x 2
                      • Dec 6, 2011
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                        @Tony Montana @Kvothe the Arcane You guys need to understand that the point of the game is for HUMANS to win, not KVOTHE THE GREAT or TONY THE ZE GOD. The only reason people believe that is because you guys like to solo. Big deal. I work with my team whether I'm fucked or not.
                        • Like Like x 3
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                        • Jul 20, 2010
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                          ^ +1 That's what I'm hearing and seeing from this topic so far. That's why I said its mainly for people who need to boost their ego about ze.
                        • Mar 18, 2012
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                          I rather have a single person take all the glory of soloing a level instead of having to repeat it 5 times in a row because the team can't work together and wasting everyone time.
                          • Agree Agree x 1
                          • Jan 5, 2012
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                            Try winning mako with 40 humans going to sephiroth.
                            • Agree Agree x 3
                            • Jul 20, 2010
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                              Try using teamwork?????
                            • Mar 30, 2012
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                              Bah, you made me log in for this?
                              Anyway, i agree with both Tony & Badgriuel. If theres a ratio of 1:5 humans:zombies, i can see it as a possibility to completely hide with materia like wind, gravity, or even ice or heal.
                              I've played ZE enough as an admin of ZE server to know this whole hiding thing is a "gray zone" in terms of punishment.
                              I do agree people who hide for the fun of it or just to see if they can solo win is stupid.
                              But the way Tony hides, (defends in the room, until shit hits the fan, and then goes hiding,) is completely okay if you ask me.

                              Even if PlagueFest would remove this rule, i don't think it would cause any problems whatsoever.
                              The updated version of mako reactor doesnt punish the "pros", like the old version did, it actually makes killing Sepphiroth easier if you have bunch of people dying at the end bridge.
                              And because of that, i don't think anyone would get their whole team killed to do a solo win anymore. And if they do, it's 100% griefing.

                              So, if you see hiding fit, i don't care, but that's just stupid, since you're making it harder for yourself.
                              On a side note, i still slay people who hide completely on bG.
                              • Agree Agree x 1
                              • Mar 30, 2012
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                                Very, VERY easy.
                                Exactly. Tell the people who can't dodge to defend the bridge from zombies, or just get killed by a slice to help the team.
                                • Agree Agree x 1
                                • Jul 4, 2011
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                                  This. The only reason people hid in the last version was because if you were too many you could not win, it doesn't work like that anymore.
                                  • Agree Agree x 1
                                  • Jul 4, 2011
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                                    Please, don't assume what my intentions are. I already explained in my first post that it's not to fuck the team over in any way in order to take all the glory, more as a last resort when you are completely 'fucked' as a team and have no chance whatsoever of surviving.
                                    • Agree Agree x 1
                                    • Jul 20, 2010
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                                      Tony you love to solo win a lot, a map by the name of paranoid comes to mind. But really guys just need to use teamwork you'll be amazed how good that works. Just need someone letting people know what to do at certain points. I've done it before on certain maps on ze and guess what we won thanks to teamwork :O
                                      • Agree Agree x 2
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