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Once again... the "No bunnyhopping" rule

Discussion in CS:S Zombie Escape started by Satin Storm, Dec 7, 2013

  1. Mar 8, 2013
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    Me and Joris butted heads about this yesterday after he kicked me for bhopping and threatened to ban me. I want him to know this isn't specifically about our little incident, but the rule itself and how there's a wide spectrum of interpretations of it by admins and players alike.

    First, the rule as stated:

    Do not Bunnyhop (bhop).
    This means you can not use bunnyhopping to gain an unfair advantage - this causes significant balancing issues.

    (from the ZE rules page)

    Note the "to gain an unfair advantage" part. I believe the spirit of the rule is to punish 1) humans who slingshot far ahead of the rest of their team in order to trigger map events early, and 2) zombies who use it to catch up to humans unusually fast.

    This is all fine so far, and I understand when the rule is enforced under these circumstances.

    The problem is with the other 99% of situations:

    Isolated bhops. How many is considered rule-breaking? 2 jumps? 3? I can tell you with certainty that I've witnessed admins, even LSAs, do this themselves (obviously without consequence).

    Bhopping as a zombie to get into a hold point (e.g. over a box). Again, this is something that every skilled player is inclined to do. That includes admins/LSAs.

    Bhopping to pass the time. Bhopping as a human to catch up to your team. Bhopping in (NOT ahead of) the crowd. The list goes on.

    The reaction from admins to this sort of activity is... uneven, to say the least. Most of the time, they don't care. After all, nobody's hurt by it, so why bother? But on the odd occasion that someone does get kicked, it calls the definition of the rule into question, as well as undermining the competency of the admin team as whole and their ability to enforce the rules in a fair and even-handed manner.

    There is another component to this discussion, and that's the anti-bhop plugin. This didn't yet exist the last time we had a thread about this issue back in april. What does it do? You go too fast, you get slammed into the ground and your velocity is reset. Works as intended, right? One wonders then, why the higher-ups can't simply let the server software do its job, and instead focus on cracking down on other rule-breaking behaviour that isn't as easily automated.

    Even the server settings (not taking the anti-bhop plugin into account) are so stacked against bhopping, most of the time there is no reason whatsoever for an admin to step in. I've yet to see a player bhop more than 20 feet ahead of the pack. It's just too difficult to keep that kind of momentum going. The timing required is incredibly delicate compared to how it works on ZM.

    That's about all I have to say. In short, there's no need to be overzealous. In reality, the advantage gained from bhopping is slim to none (nevermind these hypothetical "significant balancing issues" which have never materialized), so relax and let people play the damn game.
  2. Jul 20, 2012
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    Ye wtf. Plugin or stfu.
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Feb 27, 2012
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      I can say that i've always done these. Like you said, not to get an advantage. Hell, if i'm not defending a certain area, i just bhop around in circles and whatnot. As long as you aren't using it to get really far ahead of people to get items or trigger things early , there's no reason to really warn a player for it, especially now with the addition of our anti-bhop plugin. I rarely see players warned for bhopping anymore.
    • Feb 21, 2007
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      Well anytime there is a little leeway left to admins, there will be slight discrepancies and people will get angry. The fact of the matter is there is no reason to bhop on ze, and to avoid confusion or potential punishment, you should just avoid bhop completely. Then this wouldn't be an issue.

      That being said, what should be typically enforced is exactly as stated. If humans or zm are bhopping to get ahead of the group and cause mayhem or to bhop thru a barricade/hold point, punishment should be enforced. For those simple minded internet folk who find jumping around in circles at a hold point and not helping humans hold entertaining....no punishment need be enforced.

      Again, those that wish to push the line and bhop constantly or at difficult to tell times....well they can expect to accidentally get punished occasionally, since admins are humans, life isnt fair, etc etc.


      As your your less than helpful post....there is a plugin...but as with everything in life, its not perfect.
    • Apr 3, 2013
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      But can any LSA comment on this scenario -

      A door/path opens, and CT's have to run a distance to trigger the next stop. You are in the middle of the "ct-pack" and you start bhopping. You gain speed but you're not going to first place, just bhopping while ct's are running. I got warned for that several times yesterday, and I was wondering you guys' opinion about that.
    • Mar 8, 2013
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      there's no indication anywhere that that's what the rule is for though. and when you see a LSA do it, you begin to wonder...
    • Feb 27, 2012
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      The rule doesn't need to be 10 pages long. It says you can't bunnyhop to gain an unfair advantage. It could be a little more clear, but i think it just gets the point across. if you start explaining that you can bhop here and bhop there, income the people loopholing the rule and bunnyhopping way more than before. It's easier and safer to just say the rule as it is, and for the server admins to know how to and when to enforce the rule.
    • Sep 25, 2010
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      Problem is that admins have different definitions of what "unfair advantage means".
    • Mar 8, 2013
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      I don't think there's any actual harm in this. There's really only two areas admins need to pay attention to: the head of the human pack, and the head of the zombie pack. Just make sure nobody's bhopping there and there won't be any issues.
    • Jul 20, 2010
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      Also if you have proof bring it don't just make claims to try and bolster your position.

      The way the rule stands it works fine since typically the ZE crowd loves to push the line as for as possible on rules and find any loop hole they can to break a rule. If you bhop to get ahead, catch up or gain any advantage over just good old fashioned running then be ready to get warned. Don't see how it's so hard not to simply bhop -_-.


      Because the rule needs to be left open to a bit of interpretation or else people will try to find loop holes and you don't need to spell out every single little situation where this could be applied, doing so leaves it open to people trying to find ways around it.
    • Mar 8, 2013
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      I don't want to name names because I think it's a stupid thing to enforce in the first place.

      But you know as well as I do that admins bend the rule all the time.
    • Jul 20, 2010
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      You may think it's stupid but there is a good reason why the rule is in place, because people loved to use bhop to ruin rounds for the entire server or screw over the entire team. Again it's simple don't bhop, there you go again trying to bolster your claim and not bringing proof. If an admin is breaking rules and it's brought to our attention it's handled.
    • Mar 30, 2013
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      The plugin let players bhop, but it don't let them jump and get speed after they fall from a high area

      I'm able to get high velocity when i bhop on the ze
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • Mar 8, 2013
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        Tell me the last time this actually happened. Every single time I've seen the rule enforced, it's been something completely inconsequential to round outcome, and/or because an admin went out of their way to spectate someone, analyze their every move, and make an example out of them.
      • Feb 21, 2007
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        I'll just leave this here.
        • Like Like x 2
        • Winner Winner x 2
        • Apr 9, 2012
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          This whole thread got so long already and I have not the time to read it all, but if you were Soft Serve (which is btw a completely different name than what you admin name is) then yes you were constantly Bhopping. I saw you do it a lot of times and other admins as well. Yet, I first warned you and you kept going on, I kicked you and you rejoined. Then you said "I don't care I'm gonna keep bhopping, it's a stupid rule". When pulling the logs this will show up. Then, I spectated you, I saw you bhop 4 times more, with much more than the suggested 2-3 hops. I saw you do it as a zombie to quickly jump over the boxes (which is when I wanted to ban you and because you had 2 parts in your name it didn't work and said I couldn't 'permaban' even though I inserted 1440 for minutes). I decided not to push it due to my mistake, and left it as another warning to make you clear that this time I was actually going to ban you. Then, you did understand I believe because you didn't do it afterwards, only doing a hop or 2 to quickly enter somewhere at hold points, which is something I believe is acceptable.

          What my problem mainly was, is that despite the anti-bhop plugin, you were able to bypass it (with an obvious script I believe as this was clearly visible in your movements) and this made me think that I should have warned you in the first place. Also, you also bhopped without really trying to gain an advantgeage, but that is exactly what makes people believe that they can bhop while they can't. I even explained all of this in private to you. In any case it all in fact went to a good end and so I believe I did my job as I should.

          Isolated bhops. How many is considered rule-breaking? 2 jumps? 3? As I said above not even one, because it makes new players think and encourage to break a rule. LSA's and roots have a skin that mimics this but it is actually not bhopping. Anyways, even then, 2 or 3 once every 5 minutes is not really the problem I see many people doing it and I don't care, but we saw you constantly jumping across the entire pletora of players and advancing pretty fast at certain moments.

          Bhopping in (NOT ahead of) the crowd Personally by logic sense, if you were among the last humans, not in advance of the the crowd, then first of all you're not helping them to survive and secondly you're escaping zombies faster than is allowed = Unfair advantage.

          I believe that it's been well explained in countless threads, and by now I believe everything should be settled. You understood the message during the gameplay which is all I cared for, so there's no need to advance on this issue which is already solved :smile:
        • Mar 20, 2012
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          It depends on the map. Especially on maps like mirrorsedge people can bhop very easily without hitting the speed for antibhoppluggin-interrupt.
          Same for Skyrim and the run to the staff on stage 1.

          If player see other player bhop they might think its legal. (creates confusion- so its better to permit it from the start)
          If you bhop some admins will always think that you gain an advantage, so its always risky.

          I would say everything about 1-2 fast jumps gets critical.
        • Mar 8, 2013
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          this is precisely the type of thing I have witnessed admins do themselves, as I mentioned in the first post. something that is apparently bannable for normal players (according to you), is considered normal gameplay for admins. how is this fair?

          can we get a demo of the exact moment that you considered banning me, so everyone can learn what's acceptable and what isn't?

          no script, but I take that as a compliment.

          I don't even know what this means, but I'm certain it's not what I'm talking about.
        • May 31, 2012
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          I can't bhop myself but I've always done the 'jump-chaining' trick with the impulse to jump past boxes and I can recall a few times when it was deemed as bhopping (which it isn't, imo; I can't time my jumps to bhop, but timing the moment when you land to mantain the impulse is another story).
          I don't think Satin is an admin.
        • Apr 9, 2012
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          In the console it said admin for some reason (sm_who)


          That's what almost all players refer to as one hop to be just a little faster. That's something I do myself and actually many, many players do. It's not bhopping almost 10 times without stopping.

          Anyway, to make my POV clear, I don't care about a hop or two. If you do it everytime, every 10 seconds, each round, with numerous hops one after another gaining distances, that's not good because it breaks the rule, and also it encourages new players (who obviously aren't aware of any rule) to think they can bhop as well, especially with gaining advantages. I understand from this also that the anti-bhop plugin works on curved sufaces but certainly not on horizontal/even surfaces.