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Remove ze_mountain_escape from rotation

Discussion in CS:S Zombie Escape started by JorisCeoen, Oct 2, 2013

  1. Apr 9, 2012
    I guess it had to be done sometime, and I know I'm gonna get teared to shreds for this, but before trying to kill me or bomb-rating me, try to understand my POV. I'm gonna explain my POV as a mapper AND as a player, and try to defend my arguments as of why I think this map should desperatly be removed from the server.

    1. The first issue I'm gonna adress is the one I think is about the only reason why it should be removed from rotation... It has loads of content, particles, weapons and items stolen from other maps without any reason. No matter if any of the mappers in question have a problem with it or not, I think it is extremely disrespectful to just decompile their maps and flagrantly steal items from it, and import it in a map that is in no way even respecting or showing any appreciation to the mappers themselves... If it was put in a nice map with good visuals and decent gameplay, I wouldn't probably be so upset about it, but this crosses the line multiple times for me... Steamgamers refused the map on their servers for this reason, I think PF should do the same, I don't want PF to support this kind of maps in the slightest... I would feel disrespected as a mapper.
    2. Secondly, the map is constructed way too easily, I could have spend one afternoon just designing the shit and putting al the stolen content in it and release it... How can you even enjoy such a map that is just blocks and stuff all-together. I don't mean to say those maps are not fun, but if it's just a bunch of random stuff, and in this case stolen, and just put together on random places, that's not fun in the slightest... I can't enjoy on my part at all of such reckless mappingry... If this map is allowed on rotation, you might as well bring back ze_cyber_plague and/or ze_dust_escape
    3. Player 'overwhelmingly' liked the map... players also liked ze_retribution so much, and that map also had items similar to flying helicopters and such (except being cars, playerkilling I know) but ultimately got removed... I must say I would rather have retribution back with it's possible playerkilling than having a shameful map as mountain_escape on the server for the equal amount of joy :frown: I mean to say that the amount of fun we have on such types of maps is almost the same between those two, with the only difference that Retribution had playerkilling and NO ported content... Also if you allow decompiled maps, you might as well just decompile retribution without asking permission and fix retribution and put it back to the server...??
    4. Flying helicopters serve as the perfect delaying item and also proove to be often a virtual impossibility for zombies of winning the map... Also I heard scores like 22-3 for humans, making being a zombie on the map extremely unenjoyeable... Also Snipers are indeed an issue as was stated before (not by me) and there's still nothing been done about it... because it's fun or what? Then I must say I seriously misunderstand that decision.
    Ok so I'm not blaming PF at all, but I think they should remove it because quite a lot of mappers have been complaining about the map being on the server as if PF simply allows all means of maps as long as players have fun... I don't agree with that, you shouldn't allow a map just because players love it. I mean if I were to make a map full of dinosaurs and cars and helicopters, bunnies, name whatever you wanr and make it all random and it's fun, I wouldn't have mind it as long as all the content was not stolen and the map would have been made in an interesting way with a minimum of visible effort put into it...
    This is not the case on any aspect with mountain escape... And I will keep feeling disrespected if it stays on the server, both as player and as mapper. Sorry for the rant but it's direct and honest, and I will keep thinking this way until I see it getting removed.
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Aug 1, 2012
      I agree. This map is unbalanced and not fun at all.
      About the gameplay :
      The only people enjoying being zombie on this map are ones that wait for a human friend to fly down with the helicopters and pick them up.
      Most rounds are like the following : 20 out of 30 humans run for the helicopters, then they fall out and all die while the other 10 reach the nuke.
      The people that like it just want to play it to herp a fucking derp.
      You cant call this zombie escape.

      The entire map was "stolen", he didnt ask the original author for permission to make a new version, everything in the map is copy /pasted without credit.

      I believe this map to be a troll and a great "fuck you" to all of us.
    • Feb 11, 2012
      Remember ZE is serious business.
      No fun allowed!
      • Agree Agree x 4
      • Funny Funny x 3
      • Mar 2, 2013
        Mountain escape is the worst map I've ever played. I had no fun what so ever playing it.
        • Agree Agree x 3
        • Jul 17, 2012
          According to what i heard @enviolinador and @Syoudous are working on an edit. Remember this was build for a server with almost no knockback.

          For myself it's kinda fun to play it, even though it's unbalanced for pf settings. Let's see what the time brings.
        • Apr 3, 2013

        • Jun 11, 2012
          ze_thriller was fun
          ze_atix_extinction was fun
          ze_trainescape was fun

          All where removed because it was way too human sided or it was ZM center. And believe you me, I rallied to not have them but if they posed the same issue as this one, why does this one not get the same treatment.

          The map is fun that I can't disagree, the amount of players that stay around and populated the map is high. I am cold hardly liking it but after 15min I get bored because it's highly repetitive and becomes ZM or way human sided. But nevertheless this map has many issue that makes it unplayable from zombie side. And yeah, notice a lot of copy pasta from other maps. While it can be fixed, it should be highly balanced. Like a lot, like nutella peanut butter sandwich balanced, not too bitter and not too sweet, just perfect.

          Related thread : http://plaguefest.com/threads/mountainescape-sniper-issue.17008/
        • Aug 1, 2012
          It might be fun for you because you are always one of the first to get into a helicopter or be picked up by one of your buddys.
          For the rest, its boring, annoying and repetitive.
          Edging and killing your entire team, using items to grief can be alot of fun, but it sucks for the other players.
          If you want to fly helicopters go play MG
        • Apr 3, 2013

          People on ground shooting the helicopters are pushing back the helicopters. Most of the time, there are humans inside helicopters too. But apparently that isn't considering griefing. (That can get you killed)
          • Zing! Zing! x 1
          • May 31, 2012
            "before trying to kill me or bomb-rating me"

            Although not related to this topic, why do you care about people rating your posts? Agree or disagree ratings mean what they mean, that a person disagrees with you. I've seen you complain -and a few others- like if it was some kind of personal attack towards you when it isn't. People just have opinions. Disagre? Go to the bottom on the post and press 'Disagree', that little red cross.

            "Steamgamers refused the map on their servers for this reason"

            They refused the map (I talk to a few of them from time to time, and the guy doing the configs told me) because it has no teleports and their settings make it even harder for a zombie to catch up.

            "I don't mean to say those maps are not fun, but if it's just a bunch of random stuff, and in this case stolen, and just put together on random places, that's not fun in the slightest..."

            Copying, if done well and not pretending to be original -which this map doesn't- isn't harmful. It has been done throughout history and, at times, people have thought fantastic artists were fantastic for pieces that were copied (see: http://es.wahooart.com/Art.nsf/O/8DNVTH/$File/Andrea-Mantegna-Battle-of-the-Sea-Gods.JPG, Albrecht Durer's take on Andrea Mantegna's thing; they're basically the exact same). It's a game and not art (and it's not time to discuss about this because, as with everything, there are cases), so instead of aesthetically pleasing (maps that look good -or pathetically try to do it- can be horrible; they usually are in fact because they're done with looks in mind and they become useless; lots of awful maps in looks are fun as fuck) it has to be fun.

            "PF simply allows all means of maps as long as players have fun... I don't agree with that, you shouldn't allow a map just because players love it."

            Oh, ok.

            "I must say I would rather have retribution back with it's possible playerkilling than having a shameful map as mountain_escape on the server for the equal amount of joy"

            Also -because I love retribution and just nope-, retribution didn't have enough spawnpoints and the vehicles were quite glitchy (killing the drivers); the gameplay isn't as -absurdly- fun -god forbid- as in mountain for the sole reason that it is the perfect example of a meta-map mocking every tray herd ZE map. Mountain, despite all the copying, works. Perhaps out of luck -blatant lie, the korean server that has had it as their server-only map kept updating it for months, tweaking every mode and every weapon position-, but it works and it is fun (although playing it to tryhard/whatever ruins it).

            "the only difference that Retribution had playerkilling and NO ported content..."

            And that gameplay in retribution is thought for older-classic styled settings, that the map was done pre-OB when those vehicles lagged far less (also, they're not original as a system -with entity names being kept from older maps-, so it DID have ported content). Mountain is more suited for ZE gameplay today (and I'm saying that even if I like retribution and I'd love to see it back again).

            Atix extinction wasn't played here afaik.


            You can't call a map that is a mashup of all tray herd ze maps into a classic ze map a zombie escape map. I see.

            Syou has added a lot of things (most of them from his paranoid classic version and his atix extinction version with decent helis) and teleports. The main issue is the knockback I feel; it feels tiring to play as a zombie - now with the teleports to mid-areas and reduced knockback it should work. I've barely done anything but help him (and add a new driveable vehicle).

            Also, as a side note, I don't think mountain escape is the best map of all time, nor that it is a fantastic map. It is fun -because it's absurd- and it will stop being fun if overplayed, but it is fun and that's what a map/game should be. I could perhaps complain about the playerspeedmod entity on the map and the speedgun (taken from paper, I believe), but I don't because the map is enjoyable -to others as well, as it is seen when it's voted and played on the server-. The complaints about authorship should concern, if any, the mappers. Considering the mocked maps are predator (Luff joined and laughed a bit at the hilarity, but you should ask him for his POV), mako (with hannibal's intentions of making his hammer source tool to share all his assets, complaining about this doesn't seem to make sense), Mt. Doom (same, hannibal) , paper (PLS REMUV), and a classic map the original mapper said to be 'loved in korea' (from where this version originated; perhaps this yardy guy -that played on SG for long- is korean? I've seen several similar maps in the same server, perhaps done by the same person...), I don't see the issue there (nor why you'd be offended by something that has nothing to do with you).
            • Agree Agree x 2
            • Funny Funny x 1
              enviolinador, Oct 2, 2013 Last edited by enviolinador, Oct 2, 2013
            • Oct 29, 2010
              Then get to the chopper first.

              In this map, helicopter access is an equal opportunity for all ct's.
            • Mar 8, 2013
              it's fun as human, godawful as zombie.

              I can see this map getting old and tiresome really quick, but until then, keep it.
            • Apr 28, 2013

              Speaking of this map, I almost forgot to tell. Theres a NEW version coming soon with more modes and bosses.
            • Aug 12, 2012
              it one of those map where we can play after failing consecutive time on hard maps and win on this map to feel relieve
            • Apr 20, 2011
              this kind like mako ffxii predator minas in single map the map maker is ultra fag on those maps

              beside some maps are fun to play on other servers like in steamgamers why? zombie spawn in middel high knockback by nade low knockback by guns and for atix it have no fun on pf only in sg
            • Apr 9, 2007
              Well, I read the thread and the walls of text... To clarify, despite players having fun, you want to remove the map based solely on the copied content, and because you could make it quickly? There are tons of other maps out there with copyrighted content, especially from HL2... We can't just adjust here because he used your(?) content without permission. This is not the response you're after, but if players enjoy the map... us supporting players isn't the real problem here. I seem to remember someone porting Super Smash Bros models to Source, and the map looked great. The reason we couldn't add the map was not because of that; the compressed filesize was 200MB. I seem to remember Haplo saying yolo and loading it anyways, but we definitely couldn't keep it due to the size. To reiterate, there's tons of copyright infringement out there, and it's an unfortunate sight. Us going out of our way to not run a map due to this isn't where we fall.

              If you're shipping a product and don't want your assets to be public, add some protection to them to prevent clowns from using them. When you release something like this, it's public domain. If you can show a licensing violation, I'll take a look into it... but if someone's feelings are hurt, we can't fold like that.

              Pretty sure it was, we beta tested a ton of his PoC maps when he was still mapping. As to if he's back at it; I have no idea.

              Ah, no it wasn't removed because the cars glitched. The server would crash on it (running out of edicts, which is probably resolved now with that Open-Source Edict Allocator hack that everyone now runs), which is why it was removed. Moonbase or whatever other map by Nat unfortunately crashed as well, and that followed suit after the game went to OB. But this was ages ago, the examples are flawed.

              EDIT/DISCLAIMER: I haven't played ze_mountain or whatever the name is.
            • May 31, 2012
              He is not back, however, Syo -and I a bit, helping- started redoing the extinction map because of the driveable vehicles (but without them being clunky as fuck/laggy) and the open fight/you work as a team or you die style. I think it came out ok, although it's a bit dated still in gameplay and I think 'we' -any mapper that is interested- should start them from scratch. And yes, his maps were/are messy as fuck (but fun too, imo).

              I think the map itself doesn't clean up the edicts well either by killing some projectiles. I tried to make a dirty fix with entspy because the -old- vehicles became quite glitchy with OB and took a look at it, but I wasn't too sure and as a dirty thing I didn't look much into it.
            • Apr 9, 2012
              While you are dead right, porting content between Source games is allowed. However, while you are right about the ported content (SSBB blame and such), what I aimed for was not ported content, but stolen content, such as the predator pushgun, which is 100% from Luffaren. There's no content of mine, where would he want to take content of my maps anywhere :S (I haven't released a CS:S ze map so far).

              If I had a problem against ported content I wouldn't be building SSBB in the first place or even complain about that as I'm well aware that almost all ZE maps have at least some form of ported content, some of which are completely legal (Skyrim) and completely illegal (Virtual unexistent SSBB). I solely have a problem with stolen content, which I tend to think is different than ported content which exists in 100000x more than people stealing from other maps. I can however understand that if you don't care about ported content that you don't care about stolen things as well, then I guess it's my problem.

              Ultimately, stolen content or ported content is practically the same as I look at it now, so technically I'm complaining against myself and every other mapper, though I just want to say that despite knowing that, I still think there's a difference, and I don't care about ported content, but I do care about stolen content.
            • Dec 12, 2011
              While you're at it lets remove !pfly and tracers...jk jk.

              I disagree with removing the map.

              As a casual gamer I have no idea what was "borrowed" with permission or credit given nor do I care. I'm just here to play for a few hours and be on my way as the majority of css players. There's many maps out there that used the same recycled music and boss physics as others yet they get to stay in rotation.

              I do appreciate the hard work and time spent by mappers to put these stages together for us to enjoy but from spectating, Mountain Escape still draws in a good amount of players (not sure how long that will last).