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Remove zm_deep_thought_redux_r2e

Discussion in CS:S Zombie Mod started by Badgriuel, Jul 15, 2014

  1. Jul 20, 2010
    Posts
    Can we please remove zm_deep_thought_redux_r2e from rotation, the game-play on it is boring and heavily one sided. The map is anything but fun, unless you're a human and in one of the many heavily overpowered spots that were placed in it. Gigabite took good spots that are in the original version and then made them easy to defend and easy to setup along with adding extra barriers to aid you in defense. CT's pretty much always win and the only real way for zombies to win is if people literally fuck up in those overpowered spots, like you have to not even funny fuck up to get killed.

    The game-play on the map is very bland and the only redeeming feature to the map is that it looks nice. But good looks can only take you so far, when you look at how the game-play flows on the map. Probably not the only one to voice this opinion.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Nov 29, 2012
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      I agree with Badgriuel that the map is heavily human sided, it kind of takes the fun out of it because zombies dont get much of an advantage so most of the time people are standing around waiting for the round to end to play again. Other than the OP spots, I personally don't think it's a bad spot. But maybe instaed of removing it, how about fix it just so it can be more balanced out for both teams?
    • Dec 17, 2007
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      I agree too...while we are at it we can go ahead and remove 4-way tunnel from the server...ppl keep complaining about and a lot of players disconnect when that map comes on
    • Feb 27, 2012
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      • Agree Agree x 2
      • Nov 29, 2012
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        4-way will never be removed. :razz: 4way is life.
        • Winner Winner x 2
        • May 31, 2012
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          I've seen CTs fail it so many times, that I never knew it was human-sided. I'm not a terribly big fan of this map myself, so I'm not completely opposed to removing it; I like the idea of "fixing" the OP spots better.
          • Agree Agree x 1
          • Jul 20, 2010
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            I'm open to the spots being fixed, but as it stands the spots are just ridiculous.
            • Agree Agree x 1
            • Dec 17, 2007
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              and ppl wonder why i'm leaving pf haha
            • May 31, 2012
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              What, they have a 4way server and it has become your life? :grin:
            • Dec 17, 2007
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              if that was true...i would've shot myself a while ago lol
            • Feb 25, 2014
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              Also add more spots, so many cluster fucks, give people more spots to go to.

              4 away is the only map which receives an AAA rating.
            • Apr 24, 2012
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              I agree. This map is nothing but a server killer.
            • Mar 26, 2009
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              You're going to have to be more constructive than "LOL THIS MAP IS SHIT CUZ IT HAS TOO MUCH OP SPOTS, REMOVE IT!!!ONE11"

              Because that's all I'm seeing here. You're just saying the map is shit because of perceived "OP" spots, yet you completely fail to identify where any of said spots are or offer any input on how you'd want said spots fixed.

              I'm sorry, but I can't take your complaint seriously. It seems to me like it's the same old "the fucking gigabite" hate train from years ago. This is the exact same thing that happened with wtfhax, people like you bitched up a storm because I had something to do with it more than with the content of the map. Then that cunt moonlight (or bella, can't remember which, maybe both) decompiled the remake I made and shit all over it by plastering their names all over it and PF was immediately fine with it afterwards, because it was now associated with them and not me. Nevermind that the map was completely broken afterwards because they had absolutely no idea what they were doing when they edited it.

              But just for arguments sake, let's take the original three OP spots from deep_thought_nv (the jail, the torture room and the small room at the hall corner.) The jail is completely the same, bar being a bit bigger. There's still only one vending machine that can be easily shot into the jail, and it's actually much more difficult to do since the door is slightly smaller. The torture room is the same story, the room is slightly larger but the number of props and placement of the fixed table is the same. The only major difference among these three rooms is the small corner room is now a rectangular fence cage. The old tiny room could have up to 6 props shot into it, making it impossible to get into. The cage just has one file cabinet, which can easily be knocked over from the outside wall with zombie cooperation.

              We can further move upstairs to the original computer room, the skylight room and the room across from it. The computer room besides being relocated has the same number of movable desks. The skylight room actually has two less props and two entrances in my version making it harder to defend. The room across from it does have more props, but it's very hard to make a barrier with them that can't be broken and the room is rarely used. Not to mention the added distraction of a breakable window.

              The only room that exists in both versions that may be too "OP" is the storage room in the basement with the long bookshelf. This room could stand some nerfing, but with appropriate zombie cooperation this room can be taken. There are some other areas specific to my map that could be worked on, but your complaint resides in nonspecific original spots.

              Humans win more of the time because the better players always flock to the cage spot, rather than other areas of the map and survive more because the better players tend to not backstab if they're start zombie. But if you want to talk about maps that rarely have zombie wins, you need to go to like surf_n_cade, collossus or endless which are heavily biased towards players skilled in bunny hopping, surfing or some other advanced movement skill to get to pretty much untouchable spots by normal players. But of course you don't bitch about those, because I had nothing to do with making them.

              Gameplay is bland due to player error. If you want a more exciting round, stop circlejerking in the cage and try other spots in the map.

              Other than shitting on the map because it is, you really haven't offered any opinions.
              • Winner Winner x 1
              • Feb 27, 2012
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                As i told you in the server, these maps are designed for that. It's a change up. And it's not like players are forced to surf or bhop. There are tons of spots they can go to that don't require you to be skilled in those areas. There are a lot of people who know how to surf, and a lot that know how to bunny hop. I've seen zombies win their fair share of rounds on both surf_n_cade and colossus. Colossus doesn't force you to purely know how to bhop, it just encourages it, and encourages good team work, which was the point of zm_ur as well. Excluding 1 spot, which is the flood button room, there is another way to get to every other spot. Soft Serve has already told me he plans on nerfing a couple spots by adding alternate roots (teleports) to spots on endless because he was unsure at the time if you could get to certain places. Anyways, besides that, they were just designed for players with other skills to utilize them, but not shoving them down your throat. They're just a change on regular game play for a more interesting time. There are the crowds who dislike those maps anyway, and i understand why they dislike them, which is basically the same reasoning as you. And i agree, they aren't as fun if you're playing with people who don't know how to bhop or surf.


                The only reason everyone gets on your case is because you're so quick to say "your map is shit", but as soon as we give you some constructive criticism on something you've made, you get all full of yourself and think everything you've done is perfect, which is why i rarely come to you for mapping help/advice. I mean you flipped out on me for using func_illusionary instead of using a func_brush that is not solid. I mean really? And when people started to really like my duke map, you told me you were going to remake it. You told me it sucked because it didn't have jetpacks and made a jetpack system. Instead of remaking something people like, remake something they hate by making it better. We don't need classic/fun maps replaced, people already like them! You've got an opinion about everything and anything, but you can't take a little bit of criticism about anything and you get all pissy. Just listen to us. Sure, badgriuel was being pretty vague, but he's right. The spots in your version are much more OP than in the original. Not all spots, but most. If you don't listen to the players playing a map you've created, you're just going to continue being someone we don't want maps from. I hate playing most of your maps because they fact is, that you make everything so much more CT-sided. If you can put both balancing and great map looks together, then i would enjoy playing your maps, but as it is, they're nothing more than eye candy.
                • Agree Agree x 1
                • Mar 26, 2009
                  Posts
                  I do take pride in making my maps look nice and try to get it right as quickly as possible, but if I thought deep_thought_redux was perfect, I wouldn't have made 5 successive version updates to it to fix bugs an address issues with some spots. Base_winter and winterfun had 3 versions and wtfhax had a whopping 8 public version updates with probably 20-30 private updates.

                  And the fact I call your map shit means that I care. I'm not going to sugar coat the truth about a map that has lots of problems.

                  I'm a hardass on bad mapping techniques because if they aren't rectified they turn into a cancer that spreads like fire and becomes widely accepted. In my 17+ years of mapping, I've had to join forces with other mappers and level designers numerous times to knock people like 3kliksphillip off of their self-touted mapping king ways of doing things wrong (like using carve to make terrain or anything really) and spreading it to the masses. And the reason you don't use func_illusionary, func_wall or func_wall_toggle is because they're all legacy entities that only exist for HL:S backwards compatibility. func_brush can perform the function of all three former entities and is guaranteed to be supported in future engine updates.

                  No, I told you I was going to make the Duke 64 version (which has a different layout.) And try a jetpack system to see how it would work, because you clearly said you weren't going to do it. I haven't touched your map, nor do I plan to. I don't think you plan on trying to better your maps either because I've made suggestions that you've flat out rejected because you didn't want to bother.

                  Except the maps that I've remade, were all requested by players on the server. I didn't put all of the maps on the server on a roulette wheel and pick one at random to remake. I remake maps that people want remade and that I like the design of. I wouldn't spend 3-4 years on 3dubka if people didn't want it.

                  I have every right to get pissy when you're shitting on my work without giving a reason. You're agreeing with badgriuel and backing him up with a regurgitated variation of the same "LOL TOO MUCH OP SPOTS ON MAP IT SUX" and offering absolutely zero input on how to fix this seemingly "wide range of issues."

                  And the status quo is never going to change if you keep the same attitude of shitting on my work, acting like I'm the bad guy because I won't fix problems with the map, which I can't possibly do because you nor anyone else will bother telling me what's wrong with the map in the first place.
                • Jul 20, 2010
                  Posts
                  @GiGaBiTe when I get home from work I'll post screenshots of the locations that are pretty op. The Jail is one of them with the little seat/cement bunk you have placed right behind the doorway, you just bring in a vending machine and lay it length wise across the door and the cement bunk becomes a stopper so the vending machine can only be pushed back so far. The room to the left of the Jail cell which you can see from the window in the jail cell is also op. You have a fence with a single 3 file cabinet wide prop in there. You just keep it standing up and place it length wise along the wall and it blocks the entire entrance to the area. Not to mention the fences have lips which then greatly aids in defending the cade, there also seems to be a lip on the floor as well. You then have the teleport room that has a vending machine inside it. You can push that vending machine over to the teleport and get zombies stuck in it very easily, I know there is a second way up there but that second way is easily defensible as well. You have the truck parked at the gate that if you get a metal shelf in there and lay it down length wise makes it near impossible for a zombie to get in. You took the room right next to the teleport room and made it very easily cadeable with the amount of props you put in there, in the original version there was only two vending machines to work with. You added a long bookshelf, 2 metal shelf's and 2 vending machines(if my memory serves me right on the vending machines) with all of that you can easily cade the spot and laugh as people try to break the cade.

                  Also the second spot i mentioned which is to the left of the jail cell, you seem to have used as well in Winterfun also and I saw how easily in Winterfun people would never die in that cade. Winterfun was also heavily CT sided from what I saw round after round, but that is for another time.

                  Those are some of the spots that make the map boring since people will flock to them and use them, pretty sure there's other places as well that are quite easily defensible also. This is not an attack on you or your map, but merely constructive criticism. Take it as you see it, but It seems I'm not the only one that feels that way about your current version of Deep Thought and other maps as well.
                • Feb 27, 2012
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                  This is what i'm talking about. I understand you won't sugar coat it, but it seems that if it's not done to how you would do it, it's shit. THAT'S what i mean. Everyone has to be like you for it to be a good map.

                  It's still basically the same layout. Secrets are moved around a little (but still where they were in D3D), the bathroom is smaller, and there is a secret market place.

                  This was just a bad idea. It's a cool idea and might be fun, but a bad idea. I'm pretty sure i said that i would rather do this in another map than this one. There's a lot i wanted to add relating to the items of the original games, but i didn't for the sake of keeping stuff simple, and the fact that people enjoy the map the way it is.

                  Other than the jetpack, what have you suggested? Not poked at silly shit, actual gameplay changing suggestions?

                  Then you're just looking at the opinions of a few players, and pissing off the rest. You're not looking at the maps realistically. You have to take into account what maps actually kill the server and people genuinely hate, not just a few people hate. 3dubka was a good remake, i totally agree. the original kinda sucked and i didn't enjoy it too much. I don't enjoy yours either, but i'd rather play it than the original and i won't leave when it comes on. You really have to be careful when remaking something. If there is a fair amount of players that enjoy it and you remake it and change too much stuff about it, they're most likely going to hate you for it.

                  Since nobody has gotten to this, i'll reply in detail what is OP in this map later.

                  It's your job to ask questions. If you're not willing to hear what players dislike, they won't tell you. They COULD just tell you what exactly is wrong or what they dislike, but that's not how it works. If you want to know, you have to ask.
                • Mar 26, 2009
                  Posts
                  The metal seat on one side of the door only holds one side of the vending machine. It's very easy to flip the vending machine out if you use the vending machine in the opposite direction. You can also have a zombie use the vending machine from both outside the door to the side where he can't be shot, and you can use it from the other side of the wall in the hallway area where the cage is. It's really no different from how the toilet and sink on deep_thought_nv worked, it's just that the vending machine is oriented sideways instead of longways.

                  Zombies can flip the file cabinet from both the other side of the fence and from out in the main hallway by running up to the corner wall while holding the use key. And while there is a small lip on the top part of the fence, there is no lip on the bottom. Even though there's a bar on the bottom as part of the model, there is no collision model there. If a zombie in the hall flips the file cabinet down while zombies at the cage rush in, it's pretty easy to get in unless there's like 30 people in there. About the only thing I could do to make it easier is remove the fence door opening so it's completely open, but that'd probably piss people off.

                  Uh, that vending machine has been glitchable for like the past 2-3 versions of the map, you can't block the teleporter with it because players move right through it when it's used. There are three ways to get up on the railing under the windows and three windows you have to defend on the top room.

                  It's not impossible but the truck needs to be nerfed.
                • Feb 13, 2014
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                  Burn!!!
                • Mar 26, 2009
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                  There's the wrong way, the correct way and then my way. If not my way, I'd rather see it be done the correct way than the wrong way. I hate looking at bad brushwork, texturing and lighting. There are correct ways to do these things that aren't my way.

                  The bathroom layout is actually completely different from D3D vs. D64, and the D64 version has a "3D skybox" on the top of the tower area. And like you said, some secrets are moved around. There are also various other details that are different.

                  I've told you several times the entire scale of the map is weird. It's like you squished down the X/Y dimensions but forgot the Z so the map is cramped and unnaturally tall. Plus the red room that you get to from the curtain is "too OP", once you get the couch in position it's basically impossible for zombies to get in and the only way they can win is if someone is dumb and goes out the window a bit too far. There's no way to boost into the window because the map has the weird stretched too tall problem.

                  I'm making changes based on the few players that give me well constructed criticism, not dicks that constantly go "LUL UR MAPS SUCK U NEED 2 STOP MAPPING CUZ U SUX" which is the majority of people here apparently. If these people hate my maps, too fucking bad, they had their chance but they blew it.

                  No, it's the players job to say what's wrong with the map. It's not my job to monitor every player on the servers' butthurt level and give them individually a counseling session when they're about to have an aneurysm.

                  Yes, there is a bookshelf, 2 x metal shelves and 2 x vending machines. What do you want here? Less props? A window? Another entrance? Or a second floor for that side too that's only connected to that room and the windows?

                  And you can do the exact same thing as on deep_thought_redux, you can use the props through the exterior building walls and through the floor under the cage entrance if you stand on the chair. And all of the props on winterfun in that area are glitchable so if zombies weren't so busy trying to stack and block each other, they could just slide right through the barricade after the file cabinet is knocked over.