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Separate escape map server

Discussion in Counter-Strike: Source started by Thorazine, Mar 18, 2010

  1. Jan 14, 2008
    Continued from http://plaguefest.com/index.php?showtopic=...view=getnewpost

    I vote for unlimited. Escape maps are already hard enough for CTs. My experience with them on other unlimited ammo servers is this:

    1) Shitheads killing themselves before timed spawn or sometimes just getting killed accidentally, then raping almost everyone in the first 20 seconds. Zombie 3.0 fixed that problem (finally) by respawning as CT until the normal zombie spawn. Make sure that is enabled.

    2) Ztele for CTs has also been fixed. They simply can't after zombie spawn. This was also an annoying problem when zombies overtook the front of the pack and a few remaining CTs would tele back to spawn and camp or hide, forcing everyone else to run back or ztele themselves to chase them down if they want to end a hopeless round earlier.

    3) Blocking. This is also fixable with noblock, which works great for escape maps but not for cade because any number of CTs could camp small, cheap spots. While they could also do that on escape maps, the point is running and escaping so the few that choose to camp almost always get overwhelmed. Besides It's damn near impossible to get players to stay and defend the spots they're supposed to defend, especially near the end. Most campers simply die if/when the zombies reach the escape point anyway.

    4) Choosing good maps that are optimized and well balanced makes all the difference. Blackmesa, Deathstar, Rooftop_runaway2_v5 and Elevator_escape_v5 come to mind. I have a ton of escape maps and most of them just suck. Personally I think this is what gives them a bad name. But just like atix_helicopter, some of them can't be avoided like the nine variations of boatescape and fucking Mario that have been around for so long that they remain popular... even though they suck, and cater to the OMG1337 assholes that know them well and habitually screw everyone else.

    Another suggestion would be to reduce the number of zombies that spawn, or, teleport them back to the beginning when they do spawn and set the timer shorter, like 10 seconds instead of the usual 20 or 30. That worked pretty well on one server I frequented awhile back with just one zombie spawn because lots of other CTs were constantly dying along the way, adding to the zerg when they respawn as zombies. There are lots of variables that can be adjusted to play with the balance, so it might take some trial and error, but I think a separate server customized for escape maps would rock if it's done right.

    Other thoughts: Actually mario_escape doesn't suck as maps go. It took a lot of creative work and I kind of admire it on artistic and technical levels. Most of the usual problems like overcrowding at teleporters, getting stuck in midair, and blocking could be resolved with noblock. But CTs will continue to camp the lava room and make it impossible for zombies, and the few that know the shortest path will still nuke everyone before the vast majority of players ever figure out how to get even halfway to the end.

    Not to mention the common escape map glitch of CTs and zombies both surviving the end, which repeatedly kills all the other players until the timer runs out. There is no technical solution at all for this if CTs and zombies at the end choose not to kill each other, or if a zombie finds a glitch to survive somehow, although you can go to spectate to avoid getting killed over and over.

    Because of this, it might be a good idea to make friendly zombie bullshit illegal. I realize this goes against the traditional laid back attitude of PF, which I do like sometimes, but I also get tired of that when it affects everyone else. If the rules state that CTs must shoot zombies and zombies must knife humans, rounds play out a lot smoother and closer to the way they were intended. This should be a no-brainer. It's the core of zombie mod and counter-strike itself. What's the point of playing CS at all of the players don't want to kill each other? Especially if it forces everyone else to wait out the timer every round just because someone didn't want to die or because they knew it would piss everyone else off.

    While I'm at it, the no crouch spots rule could be eliminated. I can't think of any escape maps that absolutely require all players to move through or potentially camp a vent/tube/narrow opening anyway. There are multiple paths and CTs that choose to camp are just going to die anyway when everyone else who kept running reaches the escape point. Some maps do have choke points that aren't crouch entry that could be camped, and most if not all have spots specifically designed to to be camped/defended for a certain amount of time until the CTs can proceed. So rather than trying to make camping illegal, just say that everyone needs to keep moving if the map allows it. Again, this should be a no-brainer and really doesn't need to be enforced since the whole point of an escape map is to... wait for it... escape.
  2. Jan 13, 2010
    All of this comes with escape maps and a ze server. It's unavoidable.
  3. Jun 4, 2006
    fuck escape
  4. Jan 14, 2008

    I agree, but I'm bringing all this stuff up because most of it can at least be minimized. I may not be a server admin myself but I've toured the dismal hell of hundreds of servers over the years. Dedicated escape servers are rare and the vast majority of those are just kiddie fuckfests because of all the exploits and glitches. The rest try to mix escape and cade maps with the same set of scripts and rules. If the maps are chosen carefully and the server scripts/variables are fine tuned for them, we could have the best one out there because no single server (to my knowledge) has attempted to correct all those common problems with available solutions. Some implement noblock but not early CT respawn. Some put every fucking escape map they can find in rotation even though they suck. Some run one favorite map exclusively and leave it unattended. The pieces that fit are out there, they just need to be brought together. I admit that's easier said than done but I have faith in PFs admins, which is why this is my home and why I'm bothering to type all this out. An escape server still might be more trouble than it's worth but at least people here are willing to talk about it.

    Get rid of atix_helicopter then.
  5. Apr 9, 2007
    Instead of addressing each quote individually to what you had said Thorazine, I'll just do this.

    +1 to all of that, and it will be done (The Limited vs Unlimited ammo is still up for debate as far as I'm concerned). Also, I'm not entirely sure why Brian is so negative D:
  6. Apr 4, 2009
    Someone has to do it so if he enjoys it then /cheer.

    Like Kyle said everything you listed has already been fixed or can easily be done. If we go unlimited ammo we have to have noblock off, but if we go reload we can turn noblock on would just have to up the knock back on zombies.
  7. Apr 9, 2007
    Just a quick heads up/reminder for everyone, if the ZE server goes Limited ammo, there will be no "illegal" spots.
  8. Jun 4, 2006
    ZE sux *cough* what
  9. Jan 13, 2010
    I don't think the knockback would need to be up'ed that much for limited ammo. The server I use to play on seemed to have a perfect balance even though it wasn't a straight ZE server. Could up it slightly, reduce hp, maybe add a respawn point halfway for zombies once it gets passed if possible. You have to be fast to escape so personally I don't believe too much needs to be changed.

    No illegal spots is good for limited, perhaps we might want to avoid maps that have final escapes at the press of a button so one person makes it and screws everyone else over. Just my suggestions do with them what you will.
  10. Jan 14, 2008

    Noblock with unlimited ammo was not a problem on the few occasions I played with both. Kinda like Knives this was on a server that mixed escape and cade maps but script enabled noblock on specific ones. The balance wasn't thrown off, but then again it wasn't enabled on every escape map. In my experience, limited ammo makes it way too easy for zombies to swarm the spots that CTs are supposed to defend, either through map gating mechanisms or just waiting for the 'chopper' or nuke or whatever to reach the LZ. Keep in mind that not many players know how to choose accurate weapons like the MP5 and have any chance at holding off oncoming zombies with headshots. If ammo is limited, then the only maps they have a good chance to survive are the ones where you just run run run and never really have to fire a shot anyway if you can manage to stay ahead of everyone else, so the knockback level is also irrelevant. I've played a lot of those too and eventually didn't even bother to buy weapons so I could get a faster sprint from the start.

    Dunno, I think it should be included and experimented with. Unlimited ammo is itself kinda rare and one of the things that makes PF cool because the game balance is tricky. A lot also depends on the skill/experience of the players and whether or not they choose to be camping whores. Like I said before the better players have enough sense to keep moving and leave the campers behind to die. If the game gets held up because of campers it's because of shortsighted map design, like the lava room in mario_escape (that problem could have been fixed with an alternate route or a difficult teleporter that allowed at least one clever zombie to rape them). Just avoid those maps.

    As far as overall game balance, one thing I've never seen implemented is a public tracker for how many games are won by CTs or zombies on individual maps. Admittedly this doesn't necessarily reflect the actual balance if individual players know the map really well and consistently win it by screwing everyone else. Admins elsewhere have made noises about it but no proof was ever submitted. They would defend their favorite maps or their settings by simply saying STFU it's balanced, yet as a player it was pretty obvious that zombies either raped everyone repeatedly or CTs made it to the end damn near every round. In any case, a good map shouldn't favor one side or another too much. I think this should be included in the evaluation process.

    Edit: Oops, I overlooked something in psychostats. http://www.plaguefest.com/stats/maps.php

    As you can see, zm_atix_helicopter_uvfix at the top is not only the most popular but is very evenly balanced overall.

    zm_wtfhax_v6, right below it, is not.

    Overall, CTs have a big advantage on most maps. But a lot of that is due to a few experienced players knowing secrets and cheap, easily defended spots, like the rocks in roy_highway. I'm not saying the balance needs to be looked at on the regular server, but this is good info for evaluating new(er) maps and game balance on a long term basis for an escape server.
  11. Aug 8, 2008
    baed on what thorazine said If we get limited ammo it'll be set.
    the other side of noblock si zombies can rush a spot all at once and normally the zombies inside the others have no hit boxes due to being covered by the first one.
    plus people can't shoot while inside others, so really noblock would screw campers over even more.

    I'd be down for this if we set it up and test before we put it on the server.
    And put atrix on there or take it off our server.
  12. Jan 13, 2010
    I completely agree. Testing is good mkay.
  13. Jun 30, 2009
    stop typing more than like 3 lines i loose interest

    also ze is a good idea, tho i'd never go on it (maybe once when it opens) :razz:
  14. Jan 13, 2010
    You're not good enough to play ZE right? It's ok, we love you for who you are Cool :smile:
  15. Aug 8, 2008
    This would also make more people buy admin, if you're payin 15 bucks a month for admin on two servers, that's hella lot better then just one.
  16. May 24, 2008
    Unlimited ammo worked fine when we had escape maps.

    Limited ammo will cause everyone to control their fire and figure out when to reload while others fire.
    (You think a group of randomly shoved together players can do that?)
  17. Aug 8, 2008
    exactly it's the survival of the strongest, the weak will fall by the wayside.
  18. Apr 4, 2009
    Guess your gonna fall by the wayside then cursing.
  19. Aug 8, 2009
    everyone eventually falls by the wayside..... :sad:
  20. May 27, 2008
    Won't work. Tried it before. We hardly had any people in ZE last time, and we had spent months grabbing people and trying to keep them in there. Waste of time and money imo.