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ze_SSBB (Alpha/Test version)

Discussion in Completed Maps started by JorisCeoen, Jan 29, 2013

  1. Apr 9, 2012
    Posts
    Here it is after a long period of work and experiences.
    Additional links:

    Mediafire = /
    Dropbox = /

    If there are any bugs or needed fixes, I would like you to let me know it here or via Steam (JorisCeoen) and not in the usual SSBB thread. Thanks!
    • Mapping King Mapping King x 2
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      JorisCeoen, Jan 29, 2013 Last edited by JorisCeoen, Jan 31, 2013
    • Jan 13, 2013
      Posts
      Broken texture as you climb up the ladder for moses island:

      [IMG]
      [IMG]
      [IMG]
      [IMG]
      • Informative Informative x 1
      • Apr 4, 2009
        Posts
        Only the mediafire DL worked for me, others were corrupt.
      • Jan 13, 2013
        Posts
        I downloaded from dropbox just fine. Mediafire too slow...
      • Oct 17, 2011
        Posts
        Downloaded it from gamebanana. Awesome characters with attacks. Found a small bug on the cave level with the skybox.
        [IMG]
      • Apr 4, 2009
        Posts
        Just tested it, there was some issues that made it nearly unplayable.

        1. Humans on the t team that picked a skin got teleported to the zombie box (not sure if you wanted a shorter zombie spawn time)
        2. People that didn't get a skin were left to die (not sure if on purpose)
        3. A single human was teleported to the admin room, guess to pick a boss but it also had the Kill All button right next to it. Lets say everyone died 90% of the time.
        4. Sometimes people are randomly killed on teleport.

        Not sure if there are any other issues yet we couldn't get past the first part of any map due to the above issues.
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        • Feb 19, 2012
          Posts
          Wow wow wow what do I say?
          Well, considering you spent the last week bitching about the problems on Holmes (none of which affect the gameplay flow of the map mind you, except the train blockage), I expected more from you when it comes to QA work for a 'release version' map.

          What I can say, is that this is NOT release version. This does not deserve to be called "Release version", and anybody that calls it release version deserves to be shot on sight (figuratively).
          As you are probably well aware, I must say it is the biggest irony that you weren't here to watch pF "test" your released map. The entire map needs to be looked at with no stone left unturned.

          The huge laundry list of problems include character selection (some people say not to pick a character until zombies spawn), and many people found it impossible to pick a character, useless character attacks, glitched teleporters, humans somehow ending up in the admin room (might be intentional, but it says 'ADMIN HAS PICKED' so that implies it might not be intentional), people dying all over the place, and the map itself glitching at the end.

          We never got to see crazy hand, whenever get got to the crazy hand it instantly says 'TABUU DEFEATED YOU WIN!!!', and tabuu himself dropped like a fly in 20 seconds, seems like a problem with scaled hp. That is not even beginning to scratch the surface of the glitches in this map. Go back to beta man.

          Anyway, suffice to say, I think you are learning the same lessons I had to learn the hard way, that even though a map doesn't appear to be glitchy for you, it's a whole different ballgame when it comes to putting it on a 64 player server. Some of these glitches seem like they would have been hard to catch with small servers I agree, but it really does need to be looked at.
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            ZombieFurbie, Jan 29, 2013 Last edited by Brian, Jan 29, 2013
          • Jul 6, 2012
            Posts
            1.Seems to be glitches in the teleport system
            (ct's worked fine going into the ct "cage" while waiting for map selection)
            (t's seemed to go into a different cage with all the zombies)
            (1 people got sent to the "admin room" that had the pick round mode, including "kill all" that was spammed)
            (1 or 2 people got sent into weird rooms with tanks and they couldnt do anything in there)

            2. Models
            (Obviously some of the characters couldn't get picked, don't know if this is intentional or not, but it felt like ct's was favored over t's too get the characters)
            (don't know if they are supposed to have special attributes but i didn't see a single one with special attack, i would also suggest getting more then "1hit kill" for special characters.
            (special characters turned into zombies keeps the special models)


            3. would love too see the teleporters and admin fixes so pf can check all the amazing places you created like ice-climbers mountain and whatnot

            With fixed bugs, this can obviously compete with mako/paranoid/skyrim right now.
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            • Sep 8, 2012
              Posts
              Joris I feel like people like Zombie Furbie are putting you down on the map, fix the glitches, fix the bugs, it will be a great freakin' map.
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              • Jun 11, 2012
                Posts
                2013-01-29_00027




                2013-01-29_00028


                I've played this map on another server and we were able to see the hand and it function fine as far as I've seen. It does appear and disappears but I didn't see any issue with it. You have look up and search it since it moves from one point to the other because its attacking you.
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                • Feb 19, 2012
                  Posts
                  That's strange. Whenever we encountered the hand it instantly said 'TABUU DEFEATED YOU WIN'. Plaguefest didn't get a single chance to fight the hand because of the glitch. I wonder if it's a glitch because we fought Tabuu before we fought the Hand maybe? Could be an issue with the map thinking we're fighting tabuu even though we're fighting the hand resulting in the problem?
                • Jan 11, 2011
                  Posts
                  Well... As you already noticed while briefly playing it online, and as you are being told now the map is full of glitches that make it hard to play and impossible to enjoy.

                  The most important (big) ones, that need to be fixed before being able to even test the map for other minor problems are, from what I could say:

                  - The Zombie Spawn Time. Your map settings seem to get ignored; Enviolinador had the same issue on that Highway map. Once fixed (servers can fix this with a custom .cfg) humans won't be able to pick up zombie items anymore.
                  - The Admin Room Human. I'm not sure if its a wrong teleport, if you tried to make a secret for you to be able to reach it, or if you left a spawn position in there, but the thing is that players are getting into the room, and they shouldn't. I got in there once while I was AFK chatting on Steam... Then I proceed to chose the Hand and the Nuke All, which brings us to the next major problem.
                  - The Nuke/s seem to have lots of safe places. When I pressed the Admin Room's Kill All button, it only killed 2 guys out of 15; and it didn't even kill me, which can be a problem itself with most servers intercepting suicide attempts. If I had to guess I would say the normal stages also have nuke-free spots; maybe including spawn or waiting rooms; you really need to check your Kill-All triggers.

                  Those 3 major problems should get fixed in order for people to start playing the map correctly and then realize better whats wrong with the map and spot other bugs and problems. Some people say there were things wrong with the bosses; I only saw the Ridley one once and I couldn't really tell if something was broke... And yes, the Admin Room is an actual problem since many rounds get broke by the Nuke All abuse and you can't baby sit and keep repeating to everyone joining to don't touch anything.

                  Still, I found some minor problems that I really think you should address:

                  - Characters are very badly placed and its counter-intuitive to guess which one are for humans and which for zombies, even after playing several times, unless you memorize them all. You should color-code them (and I don't mean having a texture with blue/red dots) and/or separate them. Like having all the human ones in the North/East on blue platforms and all the zombie ones on South/West on red platforms; or even changing the layout of the spawn to something different, like a closed room (to avoid the spawn-skybox-glitch visible by any respawning zombie) that has stairs up to human characters and stairs down to zombie characters...
                  - The spawn itself seems too big for its purpose. When zombies respawn they have to walk "a lot" to get to the chars and then to the level, compare that to most maps with teleporting-shortcuts where the zombies appear directly where the action is. My personal suggestion would be, after the real-round has started, closing the "Temple of Characters", surrounding it with a visual teleport; and closing the floor-teleport that players use at the begging. This would allow you to add a new teleport on the spawn that gets enabled after the level starts, which destination would be in the middle of the characters; so zombies would be able to pick a character and then touch the solid teleporting wall that surrounds the temple; getting rid also of the "Glitch Sky" visuals for those respawning zombies.
                  On this same factor, I would suggest removing the human characters from the spawn after X time; so its more clear how many zombie chars are left.
                  - You wasted, in my opinion, a lot of map space just for the sake of it. I believe it could easily be 200 MBs and look better. I know there are lots of models, songs and sounds; but the custom textures? Most of them look quite awful in my opinion. The most noticeable examples would be the stone texture used on the Spawn-Temple, the "energy/portal" ones used in the top of the Spawn-Temple and the Waiting-Teleport-Room, and the one used on the big steps on the big Sky-Temple. You wanted to add textures with bumpmaping and what not, and make them look realistic, but ingame they look, at least to me, completely out of place. They look bad, they increase the map size, and they were badly used. An example of them being badly used would be the "energy" texture on top of the temple not being aligned so it goes around the ring like a good flow that surrounds it; or the big steps on the Sky-Temple having the same texture on top and in front, making the steps hard to see and unpleasant to the eye.
                  - Character sounds abuse. I didn't had a problem with those, but we were only 10-15 guys playing, some (like me) not even picking characters because the infamous Game UI Lag or just not wanting to see mario's hat during all the round and we were busy with other bugs; but I can easily foresee that those sounds will be a problem. No-Cooldown skills, that make a "Uy!" "Umph!" "Aha!" "Swing!" "Yujuy!" sound every time they get used, and that are easily available for 20 players on your team? Just wait until a couple of guys start spamming them, on purpose or not... Also, I'm not sure but are they global? I heard one as if it was global (I think the char wasn't close to me) but I may be wrong here. Anyway, they are going to get annoying, mark my words. They will require some time of cooldown (even if only in the sound effect) or something.
                  - Contradictory techniques. You keep saying and posting about how you want the map to look cool or even awesome, and how you are doing uber textures and doing "systems" for a 3D Grass (like on the Sonic Stage), and you use Propper (or equivalent, I know you are not a Propper fan) to avoid the Faces/Vertex/Planes limits... But then you do ugly (in my opinion, and not in all, just some) texture and use them poorly; or place grass in a way that it gets completely blackened (looking worse than if there was no grass at all); or don't think about the size/shape of the props making them getting weird shadows or being a chore to walk on.
                  Overall it feels like you wasted lot of time, effort and map size creating your own textures, grass and models to get worse results of correctly using the default ones, just because you wanted to include your own textures and models for the sake of it.
                  - Abuse of Invisible Walls/Pushes instead of a different layout or visuals. Most noticeable on the Bridge Stage; but seen pretty much everywhere. If you don't want players to reach X place, make X place 72+ units high and then add invisible wall on top of that just in case; don't just place invisible walls everywhere. In the Sonic Stage for example, everyone tried to go to the borders, which were perfectly visually reachable, but we couldn't because of Player Clip. Instead remove the crates that allow us to get up there; make the walls higher, or just allow players to move around there (making the Door and Borders higher if needed).

                  And now for less general and more specific things:

                  - Sonic Stage: Its overall very ugly and has a bad layout. Right now you spawn 2 secs away from a hold; then move 5 secs to the next hold, and that hold pushes you 1 sec later into a third hold. 1 Minute in 3 holds that are less than 10 seconds apart from the spawn in total. I already told you to get rid of the second hold (making the jumping-thingies enabled by default), but I would also suggest to move the first hold in front of those, so the hold is on the bridge instead of in some ugly crates.
                  EDIT: Don't get me wrong, its only ugly here and there (underground part, black grass) and its ugly as an stage; but visually its quite correct; specially liked the small bridge early on, the spikes (that you didn't use enough) and the loop.
                  - Sonic Stage: The third hold looks like will be a problem. Not sure if its a trigger push or the sky layout, but the jumpers pretty much allow zombies to get directly into the hold; at least the skilled ones. If its a push remove it, if its a invisible slope on the top, remove it as well. If they exist and are kinda needed because otherwise going inside is hard, think about reducing their angle or push value.
                  - Sonic Stage: The teleport destination that appears after the third hold (in front of the tunnel) is annoying (since its almost touching the teleporting area, so you can bucle-teleport. Move it instead (increasing the teleporting area) to a free fall in that tunnel; so the players will appear falling in the tunnel when teleported.
                  - Sonic Stage: The 4th hold (inside the cave) is incredibly small and ugly. I honestly think you should try making the "cave area" sightly bigger and use the extra space to use some of those spikes (I believe its made into a model?) since they look quite cool. The 4 rings to open the door idea is cool; but they are just there, in the middle, and they don't open it, instead they start the hold countdown... Making the area bigger allows you to spread them; and even make one or two "hard" to get (some jumps); if you do so, make that collecting the 4 instantly starts to open the door. You may need to give 5 seconds to those that were gathering the rings; but this can be avoided if the "hardest" (longer to get) ring is placed pretty much floating on top of the door.
                  Whenever you do all or none of the above, you need to remake or remove the props that are under the rings; their collision is conflictive and they are a chore to walk on.

                  I would like to add more on the Sonic Stage, but I really didn't see much past the 4-Rings area... I only went pass that place once, and we didn't make it to the end. Will give more feedback after a more playable version.

                  - Bridge Stage: Abuse of invisible walls and pushes. I believe there was a push avoiding me to fall into the first-appearing hold-hole? Not sure, but if there is one remove it, and instead make the hole be already there, appear earlier (to avoid players falling into it) or replace it with a "breakable wall".
                  - Bridge Stage: The holds... Players hate invisible holds... Its okay to wait for a door to take 20 seconds to open; its even better if the reason you are waiting is because whatever you activated moves instantly but you need to wait for it to arrive (like an elevator); but wait 20 seconds just because the map says so? Feels cheap and annoys the players. I would suggest trying to change them with something like a wall of explosive crates or a breakable wall with a C4 on it that takes 10-20 seconds to explode. It breaks with the SSBB Bridge Feeling? Maybe a little, but feels better while playing it on Zombie Escape. You may have/get a different idea to make a visual hold in the bridge that fits better than my C4-Explosive; but make something visual stopping the player, and make it have some sense. C4 Exploding in 20 secs breaking the wall enabling the path? Okay. A dragon coming and dropping a platform to cross the gap? Okay as well. The floor appearing out of no where after breaking or an invisible wall allowing you to pass? No thanks.
                  EDIT: You may even want to make it so that there is breakable debris blocking the way and players must shoot to break them and clear a path/entrance; making it so that the hold-timer is the time they take to break them. This is an idea for one of the holds, not for all of them. May need to have Player-Based HP or just accept that it will be easy/fast with 20+ players.
                  - Bridge Stage: When the Boar Rider is coming, its not very clear what players should do. It feels like if they aren't all shooting they can't kill it; but if they are they can't hold zombies. Also, once we didn't kill it, but if you are no in the middle you can survive; but it looked like the invisible wall opening is triggered by his death? We couldn't progress, but maybe it was unrelated or he was supposed to kill us all.
                  My personal suggestion? Get rid of the whole "shoot him" idea (there are many bosses and breakables to shoot to on ZE nowadays anyway, we are getting bored of "SHOOT AT IT!") and just add a metal grate/fence blocking the way. Don't say "Hold for 20 secs" or anything; just have the guy come while humans try to hold the zombies... The guy arriving and breaking the gate will become the hold-position timer; with the extra fun of being a guy charging on a boar instead of your average "Hold for 20 because I say so!" and also the fun of killing everyone that doesn't move to a side of the bridge. Punishing Door Hugers!
                  - Bridge Stage: The Very End. It looks very bad/sad/empty... The two final holds are divided like if it they were two different ones, but its really the same hold with the door open. I think you should rework it somehow and/or add some extra room/size/detail after the door; but compared to the rest of things this is very minor and can wait since it doesn't directly annoy/insult the players nor makes the map unplayable.

                  I think I saw the whole bridge; is a small and short area, but it feels and play quite good and I don't think it needs to be any longer. I specially liked the "inside the bridge sewers" (for giving them a name), they kinda remembered me of the ones in Dark Souls, and I liked they lighting coming from the holes... Not sure if one of the holds requires you to hold while in those; but if it doesn't, it should.

                  - Sky Stage: The custom clouds you can walk on were made in a way to look "realistic" and "cool", but the thing is that you can't exactly tell where you can step on and where you can't. This is minor; since you kinda get the idea after the 2nd time; but I still feel they could be done better or you could just add more floating blocks (God's Wrath) and get rid of the walkable clouds; but this is 100% my personal opinion and you (and lots of people) will probably disagree.
                  - Sky Stage: The Big-Steps-Temple-Thingy has bad shadow. Probably beause of how the props were made and/or their huge size; try to fix it. Not important.
                  - Sky Stage: The Steps themselves are very ugly. As briefly mentioned before its because of bad texturing. I feel like the original CS:S textures (using a different one for the front and for the top) for steps would look better than your custom one; kinda the same goes for their curvy borders. I would go for 2 faces-steps (Top and Front) and get rid of the curves; or make them just a 45º very small cut with a third texture on it.
                  - Sky Stage: The moving cloud. Well, the cloud itself is blocky and ugly, but it serves its purpose, what annoys me are the decorative clouds under it; because they really look like you can just jump far enough to walk on them (they look exactly like the walkable clouds you were stepping 5 secs ago) to get to the other side. Remove them or place them bellow.
                  A small personal suggestion would be to make the whole "hole" clouded (bellow) and walkable; adding invisible water on top of those clouds (so people don't die from falling), with a ladder to get back up (and maybe a second blocked one on the other side that opens after the cloud with humans makes its first travel for those who don't want to wait for the cloud when they get there).
                  - Sky Stage: The "Jump of Faith". After the moving cloud there is a point where you have to jump down, into the water, and the console even tells you to make sure to jump in the water... I didn't like neither being told such basic from the console, or the jump itself. It kinda becomes a problem when you are using a Character, since some of them will block your view when looking down during that jump. I would personally suggest the same I suggested on the Moving-Cloud-Hole; make a big clouded area with invisible water (since jumping on soft clouds shouldn't kill you) and let the players, after the big-jump-down-the-clouds walk to the "final Temple".
                  - Sky Stage: The "Final Temple": I have no specific problems with this place, but I think the final hold of the stage its very poor; just some crates while a normal door opens. Adding more detail to the temple (like cool pillars) could allow you to use some broken pillars to create the hold instead of crates; including places where the zombies have to crouch walk under a pillar (similar to the tree logs on the last versions of Skyrim), or even allow them to make like 3 jumps in 3 broken pillar bases to get to the humans (which should be shooting the zombies attempting such jumps).

                  I didn't saw the Metal Gear stage, and the only boss I saw was so briefly and confusing I wouldn't know if something was wrong...

                  I saw however a Sky-Mountain Stage/Boss... Not a clue of what happened. I got teleported like 4 times within 5 seconds to 5 different places... I was in an elevatorish thingy (not sure what the correct name is), moved back (but not outside of it!) and got teleported to a different one I think (with zombies on it?), that one seemed to have two teleports, a floor-hole and back-door, I chosed one (I don't remember which one) and then I was flying (falling?) down from the "top of the mountain"... Then I felt down and instead of dying I got teleported somewhere else... I honestly don't know how that Stage/Whatever is supposed to work, but it felt like a teleporting mesh... I was the last human to join and to die; and I played it for less than 20 seconds and only once... But whatever your plans for that area are, you may want to rethink or check them... XD

                  ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------

                  So... That is pretty much it so far. The map right now is still not-even-Beta because it can't be played correctly for testing, since there are some major flaws that don't allow to test the real problems that it may have. Most stages/holds felt really poorly made by normal Zombie Escape standars, but they even looked worse when compared to what the map was aiming to be: Multistaged-LotsOfChars-Randomized-Special map, but they just need work once the map gets playable.
                  I know I wrote a lot but its mostly because how I type/explain myself and because I wanted to be detailed; I didn't really report so many things, and some of them are more personal opinions/suggestions that broken things.

                  The map like now; being sincere, its crappy and unplayable; but nothing unfixeable; just get to it one thing at a time and you will make it playable to the point we can start testing and giving real suggestions and minor balance and fixing tips that will make it even better.
                  I'm still unsure about the whole So-Many-Characters idea; and from the very little I could actually play without bugs going on, we were mostly having friendly zombies or getting raped by zombies we thought would be friendly (because we wanted to see the map); but if I were you I wouldn't completely ignore the possibility of just removing all the special attacks and have them just for visuals (making a MG map with all the moves and specials you made so they don't go to waste); but I shouldn't say anything until we can properly play it and see those in action.

                  The major chore for you right now will make sure that all the teleports and kill triggers are working correctly. I don't know your method nor how many you are using... and its your map, not mine, so I can't really tell from your point of view... but to me it looks like it would be easier to just remove the trigger teleports and nukes and make them from scratch.
                  Also... How many teleport destinations are you using for the shortcuts and those? Because on Junon I will be only using 1, and teleport it with AddOutPut Origin when needed, so all the different trigger teleports will lead to the same destination; which not only reduces the use of entities, but also feels cleaner to work with.

                  Anyway... Good luck on the fixing. And I would honestly suggest replacing some of your custom textures with default ones... I feel like even with the amount of models/sounds that map should be under 200 MBs... And I don't care what your girlfriend tells you, size matters. XD

                  EDIT: I edited the message a little with Bold, Cursive and Underline to try to make it easier to read and less invasive. Still, didn't check for all my grammar errors for obvious reasons (WALL OF TEXT). Let me know if something is not clear enough or want me to elaborate.
                  EDIT 2: You don't need to answer me on every thing as you usually do; just use my reports, opinions and suggestion as you please for better or worse. I know we won't agree on some points, but here you got what I honestly think; you don't need to answer things like "I do think X looks good" for half of the things I think that look bad. No hard feelings; just saving us both typing and reading time.... XD
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                    Kaemon, Jan 29, 2013 Last edited by Kaemon, Jan 30, 2013
                  • Apr 4, 2009
                    Posts
                    Overall it looks like a good and fun map, just needs a little more work.

                    That's what we are here to do, test it on a big server to help.

                    Nothing is perfect when it's new, keep up the good work. :thumbsup:
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                    • Nov 29, 2010
                      Posts
                      Joris, a lot of work has gone into this map and I commend you for the commitment.

                      Anyways, next time you release an ambitious project, i recommend you do beta tests and let people sort out bugs before you actually call it a release title. A lot of mappers will privately host the map to see how it's going and whatnot.

                      Keep up the good work mate.
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                        Clam Chowder, Jan 30, 2013 Last edited by Clam Chowder, Jan 30, 2013
                      • May 31, 2012
                        Posts
                        Nope. That map forced a setting that causes ZR servers to go into full retard mode, explode and become a burning onion on crack.

                        I was going to write a post in the same fashion as Kaemon's when I got up, but he did it first. I think he left a few things out, though:

                        On the iceberg level thing, the iceberg does lag. It's a terribly big tracktrain, I believe. Splitting it in chunks that are parented to a 'master' tracktrain could do the job. Also, I feel that the level itself -just as much as the rest of the map- hasn't changed much since the last, previous beta we did on my server and, sincerely, it disappointed the fuck out of me the looks of some areas -namely the moses island part, the bridge part (those displacements...) and the ice thing part-.

                        Although it might be only my issue, I had visibility problems with some models. Some of them -many?- move when you right click, going back and forth in your screen every 4 bullets and giving you -or me, at least- a headache. What Kaemon wrote about the sound spam is something I had been thinking too.

                        I believe there is one spawnpoint left at Moses Island -which was already there at the previous beta version and that I had already told you about, which bothers me the most-.

                        All bosses were easy. Maybe way too easy... Is it really necessary one round, one complete round for bosses? I know you are trying to pay an homage to SSBB but maybe adding a bit of ZE-ish holding/running (1.5 or 2 minutes, no more) to those stages would make them a bit more interesting (plus you could control the player flow a bit better and get the teleports right, which, by the way, were not working well either on the last version and I told you about it.)

                        On the sonic level, you die at the circle thing. I believe that some spots in it are out of the push (?) and you just fall and die out of falldamage. I don't know if it was intended -and I wasn't there on the pF test, so I don't know if the fail was as big as when we tested with fewer people- but I remember thinking 'people are going to die in mass numbers here'.

                        Particles. Although some of them looked frankly good, there are a few that feel bland, generic and boring and, even worse, there are a few that are pure FPS nightmares -which isn't coherent with what you said about mapping taking fps into account at the thread about that map you made for gamebanana's contest thing-. In terms of particles, and as I always tell everybody because I'm a repetitive, boring person, I'd tell you to lower the emission count, simplify the systems a bit and -maybe- liven up some of them with more movement (there was one pokemon particle that was full meh).

                        I think I thought of more issues -Fornax had to read my ramblings about the map during the test, I didn't want to tell them to you right away without a full picture of the changes- but I can't remember them at this very same moment. I have to agree with what Kaemon said, however, in terms of you overhyping people with lots of 'I added a system that...' almost everywhere with posts/messages/explanations that were really, really long, making it feel like if it was going to be a really complex and well detailed map -which, in my opinion, isn't at the moment because some areas still look bland and, although the systems are nice, it's not anything really groundbreaking; or, at least, that's the feeling I have-. I believe that you can still make it a really good map, but as I had been talking with Fornax, a bit more of mapping instead of that much talking could have done wonders -I believe?-.
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                        • Mar 20, 2012
                          Posts
                          The most important problems are very difficult to test alone and they are probably easy to fix. but people qq much -__-
                          btw Kaemon knows how to make constructive criticism , zombiefurbie not(sry^^)

                          And some things like the possible spamming of the charakters leftclickaudio, I would say it was intended, but I didnt play it yet on a big server, maybe it becomes to annoying and he should increase/make a [the] cooldown of the sound.

                          Btw whats with the hitbox of a half zombie with a character?


                          If u fixed the glitches, u could test it for some days/weeks on pf and then u know what should really be updated and changed. Just dont rushfix everything, idk if this plays out well on such a new map.
                          I just mean, like on mako , there was a problem once, and u shouldnt always solve a problem just because its a problem.
                          Materiaspammer was in my eyes the better way instead of giving automatic upgrades to materias. Now every makorounds feel the same and I dont like to play it anymore. At the end you are the mapper and u have to decide, whether they like it or not.^^
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                          • Apr 9, 2012
                            Posts
                            Except for this one quote I will not quote text because there's so much I had to read about and comment right now, so I will simply tag people.

                            ^ This is what I should have done before putting it on PF. Thanks for the (rare) positive comment :smile:

                            I admire the defend from most people to me against @ZombieFurbie, but I have to say he's in the complete right position to say what he said, so I don't bother him doing so. I neither have regrets of what I suggested as fixes to his own map, though my expressions were very bland and somewhat offensive which is entirely my fault.

                            Ok, now the problems........

                            Allow me to firstly say that I am personally completely appalled and entirely dissapointed at the behind-recognition problems of the map. All I thought would went wrong somewhat worked and most things that didn't worked at all were completely out of my mind at the time of releasing it. Some things I'm clueless about, such as the admin room (I'm at school and couldn't yet check what the hell all is wrong at my map, I will not be able to do so as well this evening, and not in the weekend either) but the only realistic way would be that I left a spawnpoint there and forgot it after the making of my admin room, which was a very long time ago.

                            I do have to say regardless of the state of the map, I loved the super-fast testing and the very well-written feedback of everyone. You may realise indeed the map is not even beta (or even alpa, idk) but without these tests I wouldn't know how to fix all the current experienced problems anyway, so I have no regrets releasing it so quickly as well.

                            • The enforced zombie commands did not work. As @Haplo stated, they are ment to spawn 5 seconds after the start of the round so that T's as human during the start do NOT take zombie characters and then spam all the attacks against zombies whilst killing their teammates at a ridiclous fast rate... I will have to check back on them but no idea why they don't work. 80% of the teleports at spawn that went wrong is exactly due to this problem, which neither me or servers could do something against, so next time I will mention what enforced commands should be set up for servers.
                            • As ZombieFurbie and other people stated, boss battles and so on appear at complete disorder and bug and glitch completely and died '90% of the time'. This is in my eyes only due to the person that spawned in the Admin room and spammed the boss battle buttons as well as the KILL ALL button. There is no other way
                            • Characters are laggy. This is not new, from the start I knew this would happen. This happens in Minas as well, if you have 1, 10 or even 40 game_ui's, they will all lagg equally hard. This is due to the nature of the entity and server-client related problems as well. I can't do anything against this. Unless removing all characters, which is impossible for the sake of the map. Many people learned to play with the WK and Balrog and so forth on Minas and complaints about it quickly dissappear. You even forget it after a while. Me myself, despite having created the map myself, did not experience even moderate lagg on the chars (probably because I'm used to it) and this time it ran on a server.
                            • @enviolinador About the characters moving back and forth... it's due to the characters having a 'walking' animation and an idle animation. When you move it walks, when you stand still the characters doesn't stand still. Probably personal, but I hate models that walk 100% of the time even when standing still. This was for realism. I can remove it, but I'm not sure about that. I might simply position the chars in such a way they don't go over you screen anymore.
                            • @enviolinador Particles. I'm happy you mentioned some are good because frankly I thought you would hate all of them. I know which FPS killers you are talking about (Ness his white glow is horrible, I will fix that immediatly). I would love you to perhaps take some time to look which characters have bad ones (I think I already know which ones you mean but it might differ after all).

                            • @enviolinador Boss battles are way too easy. I agree, though many things went wrong. Tabuu for instance should drop a bomb everytime he teleports. I discovered this simply did not happen at all. This made it already way more difficult, and also the zombie platforms should have made it much more difficult, but I doubt any proper testing of a single boss battle went as it should have been (due to admin room issue.........). I'm now aware of the out-of-my-mind teleporting issue on the Ridley boss battle were zombies which fall down teleport ONTO the stage where humans are fighting. Also, Ridley is out of all bosses the one that is in my eyes far too easy for what he should be doing. Tabuu doesn't hurt with his sword as well. I will try to find an alternative attack. Also I will implement rage modes on every boss in the same way as the predator boss, only with a different outcome.
                            • @enviolinador they die at the circle thingy. Not sure why because there's water, but there is an anti-falling trigger right before the loop. It gets removed after the loop as well. I will fix this by putting the filter before even falling down onto the water. This way no one will massivly die there. And if you don't make the loop, just walk underneath it. You are not obliged to make the loop, that's what I mean.
                            • @enviolinador and @Kaemon sounds are ment to come from the character models. I know of one char where I forgot to untick the flag for play everywhere and that is Wario, which gave me headaches indeed. The only way to fix sound spamming is removing them. I would do it, but only for the normal attacks, which indeed can be spammed.
                            • @Super Mario that is strange. Are you sure MGS was activated at that time being you were there?
                            • At everyone: I agree MGS is totally ugly... From the start I knew this was the stage that was going to be bombed down. I more feel like removing it and replacing it with a new ones instead. The most difficult thing about that stage is that it has to be set during night, while the sunsettings are set to full daylight (for almost all the stages except this one). As such the ways I tried to achieve night made it very difficult to make it look very nice, but there are standard things which are ugly as well which i could easily fix. I'm probably going to rebuild the upper part of that level from scratch. I had no real complaints of the lower part of MGS so I guess that one is ok...?

                            • Another thing I will mention here is that I personally... do not really agree with most things said about Greenhillzone, visually only. I agree by all gameplay related suggestions, but the visual aspect looked pretty good to me. This is more a personal subject so it's difficult for me to understand some things. About the grass complaints, these only came from Kaemon so far, but most thought it was very cool, especially normal, non-mapping players. Due to this I will not remove the grass. Kaemon probably doesn't like the blackened models, which are blackened because of... shadows? Which seems totally normal to me, so I have a hard time understanding where it comes from. I try to defend this becaues I'm honestly tired of flat/blend looking grass textures. Anyways moving on to the gameplay aspects of GHZ.
                            • Yes indeed, I agree, I put those playerclips there because I was afraid of it being too OP for humans, because zombies would have a hard time knifing any humans up there. I will fix this by adding ladders instead for zombies, and allowing humans to get onto the sides. This way there is more room, more fun and more realism. Especially Kaemon's suggestions onto the gameplay things on GHZ are the best ones I could think of, so I will adapt that.

                            If there was something going wrong the most, I presume it were the teleports. I will, I think, remove ALL teleports on the entire map, and simply rebuild them from scratch. About the Iceberg stage... The nature of that stage was something new I wanted to try, it's in my opinion something different that the so much called 'standards' and I was curious how it would turn out. There are teleports to teleport from one side to the other, as well as teleports that catapult zombies from the top of the mountain to land onto the iceberg itself, by which they have a brief moment to zombify a human before they get pushed off. I thought of this as a good idea, so it becomes very difficult for humans as well. I didn't hear any complaints about it (to my surprise though) but it did seem like a 'wack of teleports'. Leanr the stage, if it's needed do it in singleplayer, and then you'll see there are actually only 2 teleports. The ones to teleport from left to right and then big catapult one. You are also free to go on foot or take ladders which are there was well (you may have missed those).

                            Teleports is the biggest flaw currently in the map.

                            If there any positive things to mention, I would like to do that as well though for the sake of my own scarse hapiness, because those seemed to have missed the eye (aka not been mentioned) by almost everyone who tested it earlier:

                            • Zombies do not carry over their powers anymore while being zombified, which was the biggest flaw earlier on the map.
                            • Characters are fully operating the least to say, despite them being 'totally useless' in some people their eyes
                            • You may have missed this entirely, but I spend every single time doing mapping with the idea of staying under the limit count which is technically 1088 entities. This required a lot of thinking and alternatives to many basic ideas, and in fact is in my eyes something very important. The least to say is I succeeded in that.
                            • There were no crashes or any of the like.
                            • Pokemons and hammer worked perfectly

                            @Kaemon I loved your feedback. It was the most helpful to me and many things you mentioned seem common sense which didn't come up to me. Because it's so constructive and I want to reply to most things anyways, I will do this in a seperate post. Just stay tuned, I will do it after this post.

                            In general, I have seen many things during the tests and in the feedback that were entirely correct and I will take this as a much needed test to know what is yet going wrong. However, I have to admit I feel at this moment as if I have mapped and thus waisted 8 months of time on a map that generally seems to be unpleasing on almost... every aspect?
                            I know I shouldn't feel this way but I somehow can't help it. Anyhow, I'm just not that demotivated to not want to fix it, so I will certainly, and ASAP try to fix things, this time in a good way and before putting it on a big server as PF I will do private tests.

                            I hope this cleared some things up. In order to prevent such a big dissapointment in the future, I will, as Enviolinador suggest, not update on the map or any other map at all anymore because yes it looked like it was going to be a big project, yet I was merely giving informations and interesting discoveries for the sake of informing other people so they know things about mapping as well.

                            @Luffaren I was told by @Dharkk that you were going to use my map to know what a big sized map as SSBB would do to the server... Well the size doesn't matter at all. Frankly even if there would be a 1GIG bsp (and there are, I have some bsp's in Half-Life 2, being mods, that are over 1GIG, it doesn't do anything harmful) so you shouldn't worry on that aspect.

                            In the mean time, I would like this server, and all other server to trash SSBB from the server, for obvious reasons.

                            Hope to see you soon under better circumstances.
                            Post Merged, Jan 30, 2013
                            Thank you for your kind comment :smile:

                            Yea the teleports are currently bugged completely... I put a lot of time in those and it's rather unpleasing to see it's totally messed up. I'm going to remove every single teleport from the map and rego throught all, step-by-step and test until I'm 100% sure it doesn't bug anymore. It also bugs because my enforced commands did not spawn zombies within 5 seconds after the start of the round though.

                            Admin room is most likey a forgotten spawnpoint during the development of the map (I'm at school atm and I can't check the map until tomorrow evening, because I'm going to go to my girlfriend right after school). I'm going to remove it of course, but that was a pain in the butt during testings. I can't actually still believe I forgot one there.
                            People are getting teleported to MGS tank hangar? Alright, one reason more to redo all teleports.

                            I will arrange the models and make it clear which ones are T and which ones are CT by a stupid but simply idea.

                            "special characters turned into zombies keeps the special models" is probably a misunderstanding due to Terrorists at spawn picking T chars before zombies get selected, by which this is indeed possible, but I did insert a system preventing the carry-over of powers from human to zombie.
                          • Jan 11, 2011
                            Posts
                            Its not that the grass looks bad; I do like how it looks on the spawn and other places. Is that you put so much effort on making that grass, and then you don't even check/fix if its black somewhere because the prop is inside a brush, which is basic mapping.
                            Is like spending a lot of time making a custom model and its animation for a boss fight, and then don't check/care if you are using the animations... XD

                            I think Enviolinador told me it was a forgotten Spawn Point as well, and that he told you about it on the previous test so long ago.


                            As is normal that most people don't tell you nice things about the map right now, because they couldn't play it properly and that kinda pissed them. XD
                          • Jun 18, 2012
                            Posts
                            Like Envio said this can be a great map (I was there on the first test and on the one last night.) And honestly IMO the first ''closed-beta'' test (if you want to call it that) worked better than this one. I'll just sum up some issues I had with the map, without trying repeating anyone elses in previous posts.

                            Quick edit: At some stages you seem to fall of when you walk a little bit to far , maybe make them walk against a no-draw wall or something, cause a lot of people are stubborn and simply keep walking into a pit. :razz:

                            Bosses:

                            Well we only got to 2 bosses, the flying purple thing and the last one where you save SSBB world from evil?.

                            But yea I still enjoyed the first purple flying one, it seems you didn't make any mayor changes since the first time on it, and that's a good thing. I liked his wind attack, also him jumping people was a thing that still worked well. On the other side though, he was able to catch me a few times, and I didn't even take any damage, that's something you have to look into. Also the points you get rewarded for every hit seem to carry on over the next round. Besides that I think that the zombie way to the boss platform is extremely off. The platform looks fine, the boss looks good enough IMO and then you have 3 weird looking platforms which simply don't fit in the room. I would simply replace it with something different, however they fit their purpose of reaching the CT's. A little thing I also actually liked about this stage is how you kept the room big and simply (only 1 texture), allowing for a focus on the boss.

                            Well the final boss we encountered only once, and he was dead in about 20 seconds. It seems you still kept the same attacks and the layout is still the same, a good thing cause those we're fine on the previous test too. However it seemed to me that the boss ''dissapears'' for an instance before every single attack. I was spectating someone, and at some point he was actually just looking around everywhere to find a beam of light rushed over his head and he should watch in that direction. If I'm correct on the previous version he only dissapeared on the attack where he teleported across 4 places and then did an attack. Also on this stage the zombies seem not to be able to do anything at all? This was the same on the last test, and people get bored that way, you should at least make 1 way for zombies to reach the CT's (which would be extremely easy for CT's to shoot of cause I think you wanted this stage to be only about the boss.) They also get spawned on that same purple-ish platform on the previous boss, maybe make it a scaled down platform of the boss-platform or something but I wouldn't keep it like that.

                            So yea IMO these 2 bosses work fine, they only need some changes zombie sided/visualy. I'm not even going to start about HP cause since this isn't fully playable yet, we can consider it a beta and it's pretty easy to fix. (I suggest putting the last boss his HP/attack damage back to the first test, I think people will be begging for you to lower it before the round ended.)

                            Stages:

                            Bridge_stage:

                            Ok the bridge looks a lot better than the first test, you added boxes/sewer and parts breaking off, IMO you can keep it this way. I had the parts breaking off memorized in about 3 times, and the missing parts of railing give a good indication of where the dangers are. I personally didn't have a problem with shooting the boss, so you can change that in w/e way you see fit. However the first time we played it I did notice That by simply standing on the edge of the railing you can dodge the boss his attack and stay alive while he passes you (one time only thing maybe?). Also it indeed is unclear what to do, he appears to far away, even though I do understand he has to start somewhere, maybe make him speed up the first meters so you get a clear visual of the DANGER heading your way. Besides that at the end people can jump through the walls of the side of the gate ''hiding'' themselves there, simply make those walls solid and it'll be fixed. Finally make something worth to run to the end of that bridge to, some castle in the distance, links horse near a pool of water or w/e. Just something CT's can run/jump around in and make their sprays visible. That makes the victory feel a lot better than being trapped in no-draw and a gate. I did like the river actually flowing underneath us, however some displacements seemed a litlle bit off, problably barely anyone will notice. Finally I have my thoughts on the castle I don't like the way it looks, however I don't know about your intention with it, if it's the to show it's Highrule, then it's fine. If it has to provide extra visuals or w/e, I think you might even be better of with a simply picture of the castle from the actualy game painted inthere or w/e. But like I said that depends on your intention.

                            Sonic_stage:

                            On this stage you clearly changed litlle, which IMO is fine, I clearly got the reference to sonic and there's some fun parts in it flying/jumping/moving platforms/tubes/spikes. I personally enjoyed the tubes a lot and wouldn't mind going through them once or twice more, same goes for the spikes, why only 1 square meter of spikes? You could have simply made a whole field with 5 platforms hovering above them so CT's can jump from once side to another. Just an idea :wink:. Also maybe add a litlle coin sound when you pick one up to show you did something good? I would also (like Kaemon mentioned) change the cave part, it's a pain to reach those coins, you simply can't run over the hill, however the visuals clearly show differently. This is also something we mentioned on the previous test if I'm right. With some tweaking on the holds this stage can be ready to go in no time.

                            Ice_stage:

                            I like the iceberg texture, however once you fall of your simply dead when you hit the platforms to the left and right (something we mentioned in previous tests?). Also I don't clearly get what's idea behind the upper and lower part you can teleport too, it's very confusing and I think you'd be better of with a few blocks you got to jump over rather than a teleport, cause you can't see if zombies are getting in and out. However I don't know what your intention on this hold is. I could be way of with my thoughts. Besides that the stage looks kinda plain but it seems to work fine.

                            Cave_stage:

                            Well we didn't get past the elevator, so besides showing up at the tanks, which you said is unfixable (I bet you can fix it :wink:), I really can't say a lot about it. You tried to make it look somewhat better, with adding some textures on the previous huge concrete wall, so that's good, Besides that I think you can make the holds a whole lot better.

                            Temple_stage:

                            The clouds can be kind of hard to figure out sometimes but I guess that only takes a few rounds, besides that you should try adding some stuff when running through the clouds towards the temple, it feels empty with only 1 rock texture. Also I noticed that the back part of the temple isn't visible till after about 20 meter, where it suddenly pops-up I know this is a visibility issue, but maybe you can change that somehow? Also the jump Kaemon mentioned (which we also mentioned on the first test) is still there, I bett it's awfully hard to make the bottom of the players model transparent or w/e but I think you should still make this differently. Maybe flip it around and make players go up through a tornado, with spikes on the side of the opening killing upon hit, instead of jumping down?

                            Models:

                            There is some stuff I noticed with the models too, Idk about PF but the models their attacks didn't seem to work at all. Also since a lot of attacks are melee it seems extremely hard to hit someone without getting hit yourself (however cause of the attacks not working this might be the problem too and if so, they work fine). Besides that particles didn't seem to work on some models but this might be server/client sided as well. So if PF had no problems with it it's fine either. Finally I honestly didn't bother the sounds they make to much however, at some point my model ''broke'' and he kept spamming the same sound a number of times in a row ... Yes that trully was annoying, but I guess a little fix changes that.


                            So overall these are the most problems I encountered, I won't start on teleports and all that cause Kaemon already said that, and I bet you can fix all the massive kills upon teleports/teleports to weird places with some help from others. If it wasn't for Envi mentioning my name I probably would have kept this way shorter but now I felt like I had to complement Kaemon, also cause I was there on the first test. I guess the teleports are the biggest problem and once you got all that sorted out, I bet this map is playable and really up for a test. However I do feel Envi is right, you could have spent a lot more time on visuals, where you did barely anything noticably to the eye from the previous test, where you mentioned you did change a lot on the forums.

                            FINALLY Joris don't get this wrong I'm not trying to bash your map here and there is a lot of stuff that really depends on the persons opinion about what the point of the map is. Like I always try to say ''You're the artist, you make the decisions.'' You see stuff differently (like every other person does), and make the map with your standards in mind. You can only listen to others, more experienced people (<-- which I'm not, I simply got an opinion), and try to take their advice and use it for the better, as long as your creation allows it. I always find it hard to be critical about someones designs, and I certainly don't hope it got your hopes down. THIS map can be really good, at this point there's a whole lot which has to be done, but nothing can not be done. I know (cause I read your thread), you've been tired with this map a lot of times, however never let that influence your designing, take a break for some time and get back on it. This map will be good on it's final release I know it. However keep nagging more experienced mappers with your questions, learn as much as you can, I will be waiting for the next (beta) version!

                            (Like Kaemon said, don't try to reply on everything in this post, simply PM me whenever you feel like you want a CSS regs opinion about something.)
                            • Useful Useful x 1
                              Fornax, Jan 30, 2013 Last edited by Fornax, Jan 30, 2013