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Discussion in Work in Progress (WIP) started by JorisCeoen, Aug 3, 2012

Should I include a 12th stage? (A ninth playable stage minus the 3 boss battle stages)

Poll closed Aug 18, 2012.
Yes! 5 vote(s) 20.0%
No... 1 vote(s) 4.0%
The decision is yours 15 vote(s) 60.0%
Add more than 12! 4 vote(s) 16.0%
11? That's far too much for me, make less! 0 vote(s) 0.0%
  1. Apr 9, 2012
    Hi everyone!

    As many of you already know, I have been working for about half a year on ze_SSBB_v1, and I think it's time to reveal a bit more information, and of course some pictures for the first time!
    ze_SSBB_v1 is a map that is (almost) entirely based on the game Super Smash Bros Brawl (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl). Many of you will know it for sure! It's a game for the Nintendo Wii, and was actually started on the Nintendo 64 (Super Smash Bros.). There was also Super Smash Bros. Melee (Gamecube) and even today most SSB fans think Melee is the best version of all three versions that have currently been released.

    SSBB is a sidescroller fighting game, and as the name suggest, all kind of characters from Nintendo and 3d party characters will be able to fight each other with all sorts of attacks! The fighing takes place on a stage of your choice.

    There are a total of 35 characters in-game that you can choose as a fighter, these include:

    - Mario
    - Luigi
    - Peach
    - Bowser
    - Ganondorf
    - Mr. Game & Watch
    - Samus/Zero Suit Samus
    - Link
    - Toon Link
    - Zelda/Sheik
    - R.O.B.
    - Kirby
    - Metaknight
    - King Dedede
    - Pit
    - Marth
    - Ike
    - Yoshi
    - Pikachu
    - Lucario
    - Ice Climbers
    - Jigglypuff
    - Pokémon Trainer (Ivosaur/Charizard/Squirtle)
    - Captain Falcon
    - Olimar
    - Donkey Kong
    - Diddy Kong
    - Wolf
    - Fox
    - Falco
    - Snake
    - Sonic
    - Ness
    - Lucas
    - Wario

    All of them have 1 neutral ground and air attack, 1 dash attack, 3 tilts, 3 grabs, 3 normal aerial attacks, 3 smashes, 3 special attacks, 3 special aerial attacks and 1 Final Smash. They can also jump twice (and eventually do a shorthop).

    There are a gazilion of items, mainly being pokémon balls as a first categroy, and all other types of items (such as Bo-Ombs, Hammer (Golden Hammer), and the last category would be the assist trophies.

    Now that's about it for the game info (it's just a splink of the game's content but it's the most important)

    About my own map, it will be entirely based on this game that I just explained, and as such ALL of the above mentioned characters WILL be playable in my map. Even better, grouped characters such as the Pokémon Trainer (which is in the game 1 characters (you can play 3 pokémons together in the game)) will be split and each pokémon will be 1 player instead. The same counts for Zelda and Sheik & for Samus and Zero Suit Samus. The Ice Climbers will not be split though.

    Each character will have 1 normal attack (usually very (too) short range but deals a fair amount of damage) and 1 special attack, which is far more powerful but has usually a very long recharge time, which compares for good range and strong power. An specialattack is not always an attack on itself, but might be useful for defence or other characters instead (or yourself). Depending on the class of the character (heavyweight or not, long range or not etc...) the attacks will be very obvious per character. Example: Ganondorf will have immersivly strong attack and good range at the cost of speed (in attack, not movement) and recharge time, while Sonic can for example spam his normalattack all over the time but is arguabky useless as a matter of an attack, however his special makes him go very fast which is related to his lightweight (middleweight as some say).

    As a special feature, all characters will have their own Final Smash, which is usually very powerful and can result in both ways to massive 1-hit KO's. They will however be much harder to land properly and if used incorrectly it might as well be negative for your own team instead of helping.

    Also, the characters will have a movement animation when you move, and an idle animation when you are not moving, offering more realism (at free cost!).

    This will result in 39 characters being playable in the map.

    As many mappers of you will realise, this will result in 39 game_ui's (much like Luffaren's mg_crazykart) and as such players with a long distance between the servers of Pf (just like me) will suffer the lagg (hard or not hard). Even though I suffer the lagg pretty hard, it doesn't kill the gameplay at all and it's just a matter of adapting a bit to the movement (which doesn't change but just reacts a bit later than usual). This is not my fault, this is due to the bad coding in the entity and there is nothing to change about it. In order to minimize all possible problems and issues that would cause even more lagg (IN for the net_graph) I have made it that way that not any possible solid will be parented to any of the characters! Solids are terrible regarding IN and no single character model will have a solid model attached to it (with this I mean NOT having any collision model at all!! You should know that just disabling the collisions on the model will NOT solve the lagg as the collision model will go with the model regardless if it's on or not (You actually have to remove the .phy file that is accorded to the model in order to completely remove it if it's there)).

    If you want a preview of the lagg, play as a hider on the mg_HnS from Tony Montana and you will see how it'll be like.

    Do notice that you are NOT obliged at all to take a character and as such you are free to choose to bear with the lagg or not (It sounds pretty stupid as a reason but this does defend the fact that you CAN play the map without any lagg from the game_ui). Also, in theory, characters aren't necessary to finish a map. So in each scenario, wether it is no one having any characters, or all zombie chars vs no human chars or vice versa, it should be doable.

    As in the game, there will also be pokéballs & items (No assist trophies)

    The map choosing goes random. Each and every stage can be chosen from the start of a round as long as it hasn't been won yet. Once won, it'll be locked permanently. Every 2 stages won there will be a boss fight. If you lose a stage it will not count towards the progression of a next bossfight and it'll have to be redone. It however won't necessarly have to be redone right after. After a fail, by the next round any other yet to be won stage can be chosen and won instead. This system has now been tested multiple times by myself and is flawless. So far, at least, because it's physics dependent. I may be thinking, after all these years, to be switching to a slightly more updated method that spares some entities but still yields the exact same results.

    I will open a poll for the fact if there IS really a 12th stage needed or not, however it all depends on the fact if I really don't feel like it, then it won't come.

    For pictures, here they are (All outdated as f*ck:

    Spawn zone (mirror spawn zone with the center containing all characters)
    Next 4 images are all from the spawn zone and shows the final characters as they will appear in the map.[IMG]
    Stage: Bridge of Eldin (3D skybox will increase in detail (only slightly))

    Random picture of Ganondorf being on the Bridge of Eldin.

    Stage: The Summit (Origin is from the Ice Climbers)

    Stage: Do I even have to tell which stage this is?

    You can guess what this is going to be :wink:

    Stage: Start of the Shadow Moses Island of Metal Gear Solid (Snake)

    Stage: Skyworld (origin is from Pit). This will be a far less known theme. Notice that there is no 3D skybox yet and the clouds will have a different texture. Also note that I had to make the clouds entirely myself, as a 3D cloud model is pretty non explanatory for itself...

    Last image is another part of Skyworld. I'm not yet going to explain what's going to happen here ^^

    Ok I hope some people will be satisfied with the pictures as they are now. I only showed some stages here, but there are many more. With the exception of the character models, nothing is final yet, but very likely to remain as they are right now.

    Some spots need more detail, that will indeed improve!
    The thing is, in SSBB you have a TIER LIST. This list places the characters their strength compared to all character with a range from 1 to 35...

    As such, Metaknight is currently nr1 and by far the strongest (and banned in tournaments) while Ganondorf is ranked as the very last for being VERY poor as fighter overall... I will try to change that and balance the powers everywhere.

    As such I expect many version after the first release, mainly balancing characters.
    Unlike some maps, my map will entirely be changeable, there is nothing that will be a fixed thing. I mean that if there is a bug (such as a physics bug due to a complicated system) it's not that it will be unchangeable. Also I will always TRY to support my map until it's completely fixed. I will never ever abandone a map just because there is something hard to fix.

    One of the biggest features of the map will be the textures: They will heavily rely on Bumpmaps and even Parallax Maps (which is since a very short time supported for Source) to make them as nice as possible, resulting in the same for the overall environment. Only the textures really needing to have it will contain it, and PC's that are soo poor that will be unable to run it will have backwards compability, as such they will automaticly be disabled if your PC can't handle them. What it basically does is giving it fake-real time shadowing and even some height scale (much like 3D rendered textures (fake 3D rendering)). It gives a very nice effect and makes the overall environment very nice, but it comes at a (very small) cost of some FPS. As I see it, if a PC can run them he will run them very fine without any problems, and if he really can't they will be disabled anyways. Texture rendering is the least of the problems that Source has so don't worry too much about it!

    Another thing is that I made arguably all models now with Google Sketchup instead of Propper (don't get me wrong: Propper is a heaven-like tool, but if you can make them with a 3D modelling program, do so. This only counts for those who know what a perfectly optimised model is.) The reason is that I think there is no limit on optimization. Propper DOES make unoptimized models in most cases. The difference? Probably nothing, at least not noticable by the eye. It might be noticable on some computers but that's about it. I only think by this that whenever you can optimize, do it! It's always better no matter how you want to defend it. There were a lot of model firstly being created by propper. The thing is that even with nodraw, there were still some faces that I absolutely couldn't remove even though they were not visible for players but still been rendered. I don't want that. When something can't be seen, it shouldn't be rendered at all!

    However, the foremost reason is that with Sketchup, you can literally 'draw' certain models by the hand (which is in 3D Max far more unobvious). As such the limits are endless. Only the texture export is a pain in the ass but once you get it it's more like an habituation of the exporting. That's about it. Almost all models are from Sketchup... I can't even recall which models are from propper...

    One thing that I didn't include are prop_physics for obvious reasons...

    You can ALWAYS contact me throught Steam, via Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/JorisCeoen) or via my email: jorisceoen@hotmail.com

    Ofc you can always find me here too!

    Have fun everyone, I hope you like it as it is now. Always be free to give suggestions!
    • Mapping King Mapping King x 21
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Zing! Zing! x 1
      JorisCeoen, Aug 3, 2012 Last edited by JorisCeoen, Jan 12, 2014
    • Jun 23, 2011
      Sounds interesting......

      But metaknight has to be super broken tier good since this is ssbb :razz:
    • Apr 9, 2012
      Ok added all information, all pictures now and a poll.

      The thread posted itself in the middle of the construction of the forum post and that's why it was halfway stopped, but now I completed it!
      Post Merged, Aug 3, 2012
      Metaknight has severly been downgraded without any changes on my own SSBB map mainly because his attacks are pretty useless as a zombie model. Even his Final Smash will be one of the most difficult to land properly. However if landed really properly, he could (principally) kill all CT's in 1 hit with his FS. The chance that that will ever happen, is 0.00000000001% imo

      However as I said, I will balance them all, even if it needs more than X versions :wink:
    • Jun 23, 2011
      Lol but his downsmash is rape! it needs to one hit the whole server since its so good! >:grin:

      Anyways the pictures and everything looks good and hopefully this turns out well since im a huge super smash brothers fan!

      Keep up the good work!
    • Apr 9, 2012
      My fav is Mr. Game & Watch... However he was one of the most difficult to make any usefull in my map xD
    • Oct 17, 2011
      Omg omg omg omg. This map looks...... Mamamia!!!!! Joris this is awesome.
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • Jun 23, 2011
        Lol my fav is actually wolf / weegee

        Im just making fun of metagay since hes broken :razz:
      • Apr 9, 2012
        Well Metaknight IS really a bit overpowered. Plain new people could spam his neutral B which is the attack with arguably the highest priority, and then do it until you're high enough to be KO'ed... It was pretty difficult to beat him. However he has a lot of difficulties with Mr. Game & Watch and that's why I can really beat him easily now. (Mr Game & Watch has also a lot of priority in many attacks)

        Btw priority does not apply in any way in Source SDK, just to make this clear xD
      • Apr 1, 2012

        that's all I can say...

      • Feb 3, 2012
        Probably...........the best map i've ever seen.
      • Apr 9, 2012
        When Luffaren will release his next map this map will look like crap imo :wink:
        • Funny Funny x 1
        • Apr 1, 2012
          why are you europeans so good at this thing?
          • Funny Funny x 1
          • Apr 9, 2012
            Where are you from xD?

            Everyone is good at it, it just takes patience to learn. Patience is by far the hardest thing to deal with
          • Apr 9, 2012
            Ok the next 7 days will be VERY busy and I will have arguaby no time to edit anything on the map, let alone be on the computer. I still hope to release the map BEFORE the end of august.
          • Nov 11, 2011
            Luffaren and Joris work months upon months to create their maps. It requires time, patience, knowledge, and good taste.
          • May 5, 2011
            No they hax. And Joris what program do you use to make models?
          • Jul 4, 2011
            I believe he used a program specifically made for that game. I'm also pretty sure you can extract models from Gamecube/Wii games.
          • May 14, 2011
            To model, hes uses Google Sketchup if thats what your asking, at least i think he does.
          • May 15, 2011
            How the fuck do you create models like that in Sketchup? Sketchup is an architectural based 3D modelling program. I'm pretty sure he either made these in Maya/3DS or Z-Ray.
          • May 5, 2011
            Oh ok, so like exmaple getting the Gamecube games on his PC then using a program to extract the models?

            Looking at it, the program looks too basic and simple