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ZE_Super_Smash_Bros_Brawl_b1 - Dividing the Characters!

Discussion in Mapping Discussion started by JorisCeoen, Sep 28, 2012

Do you like the current division?

Yes 6 vote(s) 60.0%
No 2 vote(s) 20.0%
I don't know SSBB 1 vote(s) 10.0%
Think it over again, but it might as well be released as it is now. 1 vote(s) 10.0%
  1. Apr 9, 2012
    Hi everyone, as mentioned here (Kaemon Blog) and here (Pf Post) I've been building for a long time on my map (ze_Super_Smash_Bros_Brawl) and I've finally come to the part where I have to finish up the characters. I need to add all the currently missing entities and special effects to the characters, but that's not what I'm here for:

    I want you guys to give your opinion about the table below that is currently my idea of dividing the characters 50/50 to CT's and T's. Everyone can give his opinion, though I'm 100% only those who know the game well enough can answer constructivly to this post. I will read all posts and take notice of them.

    Here is the table: (Red = Zombies | Blue = Humans)

    Allow me to explain certain choices:

    Right now I'm already certain people will say: WTF KING DEDEDE IS HUMAN AND KIRBY ZOMBIE WHY (with the trollface in mind)?????????

    • I know it's a bit strange, but there are 2 bad guys in the Kirby Universe and 1 good (Obviously Kirby). The thing is, King Dedede uses projectiles which are somewhat dangerous to use for zombies, and most important of all: Kirby has no appealing attacks that could possibly be useful to humans. My idea was to have Kirby 'swallow' edgers from the edges with it's inhale neutral attack (which is iconic for Kirby). This way, I had to give Kirby to Zombies and King Dedede to humans, there is no other way.

    • At first I gave Link to zombies and Ike to humans, but then I would have given both Fire Emblem characters to Humans and almost all the Zelda characters to zombies (Toon Link excluded) = BORING so I switched Ike and Link.

    • The reason Peach is human is already very obvious and will be even more when you'll see her in-game so I won't explain that.

    • Why is Pikachu Zombie? Enterly due to it's attacks, because Pikachu can be one of the better ranged enemies which I thought would be more challenging to give to zombies to keep balance in tune.

    • Ganondorf is of course the epic zombie character as well as Bowser so they can't be changed.

    For those worried about Metaknight...
    Now... Metaknight has been mentioned multiple times earlier by SSBB fans to have him severly nerfed. I tried to do my best to not nerf him but not make him too overpowered either. In any case:

    I CAN change any attacks that I want but it will only happen during the next updates. This means that attacks and balance between any character (not just MK) will be tested and adjusted in next version!

    That's about it! Feel free to be angry at me and say that this is a horrible division, but please keep in mind that Source and Brawl are ABSOLUTELY not complementar, and that it gives me a hard time to find good and especially useful attacks.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Aug 10, 2012
      This.. is.. awesome.
      I call either Link or Samus as my character!
      Just to note: I like the divisions, but, I think you should switch ike with marth. In my mind Ike is the good guy.
    • Apr 20, 2011
      i call sonic but to many characters just hope its not lagging like in other maps
    • Nov 11, 2011
      Too many characters will always lag the server. This has been my main concern ever since I heard about this project from Joris.
    • Apr 9, 2007
      It's just models. Since they're not precached (?), it's fine.
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • Informative Informative x 1
      • May 14, 2011
        Go Pikachu!

        As long as they are not solid, which they arn't should it not lag the server?
      • Nov 11, 2011
        Well if they are parented non-solid, should be no problem. :sidefrown:
      • Dec 6, 2011
        Hopefully this does work out, it's pretty badass to see all of these characters in one map. :cool:
        • Like Like x 1
        • Aug 1, 2011
          I question the split of Zelda and Shiek.
          In Zelda's move set they are technically one character. They ARE one character, the only reason Shiek is separated is because some people like to start out with her.
          I think the both should be good.
          And Samus and Zero Suit are split? Mario and Luigi are split?
          :frown: that's upsetting.
        • Apr 9, 2012
          I hope the same
          They have no solidity at all. A thing many people don't know is that even though you can make a model non-solid, it will still remain attached to the model because you can toggle it on/off in-game. As such, you have to remove the .phys file from the model in order to completely eliminate lagg. In this case, a glock viewmodel of a player would technically lagg the server more than all of the SSBB models together (animated or non-animated doesn't even matter).
          Same xD
          The reason they are split is because I want both parties to have at least a character of the series. In SSBB you can fight Mario with Luigi and so on, so you can't really say it's impossible or unlogical to do so.

          And now what I want to say about this: I knew everyone would complain about the lagg.
          Let me explain:

          You can read the thing about the solidness what I stated in bold above so I won't repeat it here.
          HOWEVER: IF it would lagg, it would be entirely due to the game_ui. What you have to fear is not the models and the parented triggers and such at all, but only the game_ui. You can say "well why don't you use attack without using game_ui's???" Many many people already asked this question and I've gone throught all entities, and it is simply impossible to do the job of a game_ui as easy with anything else. Cooldowns which have all different timings, relay and cases, animations and so on are ALL fired thanks to the game_ui. This is simply undoable with only buttons and what else that could work. It would be a hell of a pain to play it searching out all the buttons, reminding which side would be a normal attack and so on.

          Due to all of that, I chose game_ui after all I tried.

          Now, for those who don't know and may now think wth is a game_ui? It is the only entity that can fire outputs simply by the movement and attacking keys. Like, when you press your primary fire, it will fire all the needed outputs for the normal attack of a character to work. It is a lovely entity with a lot of possibilities otherwise impossible to achieve.

          HOWEVER: It "laggs". Why the ""'s? Because what it basically does is not lagging the server, but instead lagg your own movement. It delays all your movements. Like, when you are walking forward, and then you press left to straf to the left, you will only straf left about half a second after you actually pressed the button. Personally on Minas, running with the WK or Gandalf or Oil/Barrel didn't bother me, even though I live in Europe and PF is located in America (= the longest possible delay which was for me like half a second). I could play it fine, but if it's combined with people that have a less stronger PC (and optionally PC's with options set too high without them knowing it) it is a less pleasant experience...

          It all depends whether you can handle it or not. I remind you that you are still free to play without a character, which works perfectly too. I want to point out that the map does NOT rely onto any of the characters to win, but it is much more pleasant/fun and of course helps the overall situation, and is a keyfactor of the theme the map is built onto.

          All of this to say that maps like Minas didn't lagg due to game_ui's, while those characters even had solids parented to them which is not in my map at all.

          Also, remember zm_crazykart from @Luffaren?
          I talked a lot of this 'issue' about him, and he said it would be fine as long as no solids are parented. He told me that each of his kart had like 20+ entities which had multiple solids. I played that map a couple of times and I didn't even felt any lagg. I only felt the lagg that happened to my controls (which is even less noticable on his map as you can't really see yourself walking (only racing from thirdperson view)).

          It's especially his map that I based myself on not to worry too much. Lagg happens because a lot of data transfer gets delayed or because of someone with an high and unusual ping. Not to mention that 90% of all the lagg complaints come from the tremendously expensive fire particle from Valve (which can be changed, which I already suggested to Pf, which Enviolinador has repeated about a week ago and everyone listened to him but not to me............)

          In any case, all of this to answer your questions and to give my theory about all of this.
          JorisCeoen, Sep 28, 2012 Last edited by JorisCeoen, Sep 28, 2012
        • Feb 21, 2007
          I do not approve until I see a retslag1 in there.
          • Funny Funny x 1
          • Nov 11, 2011
            I recall last time someone made a statue for you, you took offense. COUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :ROFL:
          • Feb 14, 2012

            Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2
          • Jun 18, 2012
            This person won't add your map cause it has to many stages and it requires running. >.> :wink:

            Anyhow it looks really cool, keep up the good work, of course I got my questions with certain characters but it all depends on how you want to use them and your personal view on every character. I'll complain once your map is finished. :smile:
          • Jun 15, 2012
            begging for ct zelda ! xD
          • Jan 11, 2011
            For those still wondering what a Game_UI is exactly, is the entity that allows the mapper, after enabling it for a player, to give outputs to his mouse and keyboard clicks; so instead of pressing "E" on a button, you press Left Click, Right Click, Foward, Backward, Left, Right, Jump or Crouch.
            Its three big features (over buttons) are that only the assigned player can use it; that you can use them at anytime with no problem (unlike the buttons that may be blocked by other players or a moving/falling bridge) and, obviously, that you can have multiple outputs (do X on Left Click, do Y on Right Click, do Z on Crouch, etc...)
            The downside is that is uber-crashy on the hands of an unexperienced mapper, and that it can lag the owner (not sure yet if its based on your computer or what).

            This has been used mostly on Paranoid (Titan, Balrog, T-Rex, Juggernaut, Dog, Jumping Zomibe, Teleporter Zombie...) and Minas Tirith (Balrog, White Knight, Gandalf, Troll, Ammo Barrel, Oil Jar).
            The "Game_UI-Lag" is a pretty weird thing; some people suffer it, others not. If you are "laggy" (yourself, not the server) while using any of the above mentioned, Joris' characters will probably lag you aswel. But as mentioned, the server should be just fine.

            About the characters division...
            When I talked to you briefly the other day I suggested make it only when it makes sense. So making villains for zombies and heroes for humans. Yeah, humans may end with more players... But do the characters really help the zombie using them anyway? I don't know what their special attacks may be; but I guess they will still try to get to melee with the humans, so not a big diference.

            Another option, if you may be up for it; could be making them all available for everyone. After X time passes (when zombies spawn and humans are not allowed to pick the chars anymore) you could change the filters of their remaining trigger hurts and pushes (if needed) and toggle a second skin that makes them obviously look like villains (Dark Mario, Black Donkey Kong, Shadow Link, etc...).
            If you find this feasible (only you know how and what entities you are using on them; it may be too troublesome or even imposible) and feel like doing it, I could help you with the secondary skins.
            • Good Idea Good Idea x 1
              Kaemon, Sep 29, 2012 Last edited by Kaemon, Sep 29, 2012
            • Jun 18, 2012
              Does this mean you'll lag as badly as having the anihilator on paranoid? Cause that's pretty much the only one I lagg on up to an almost unplayable basis.

              BTW does the fact you put in these combo's via keyboard mean that you can surpass them somehow. I mean that you actually cheat the game by using something like a bind or anything like that.
            • Apr 9, 2012
              Never used anihilator so I wouldn't know why, and:

              No, because the only outputs for the attacks are the mouse clicks, which on use immediatly shutdown your game_ui during the time it needs to recharge. As such you cannot spam your first attack and not your special too. Also, I have a system that allows you to still use your normal attack during the cooldown of your specialattack.

              So you can try binding all you want, it won't work ^^
            • Jan 11, 2011
              Most likely yes, they will add lag (for you) as badly as having the anihilator on Paranoid.
              As mentioned, the "Game_UI-Lag" is something weird; and we are not even 100% sure of what causes it; but people with better computers and/or conections don't suffer it. I personally lag (but still playable) when using Game-UI based monsters and weapons; whoever I believe that the zombie ones (wich only have Knife and so aparently the Game-UI doesn't need to keep track of what weapon you are using) lag less for some reason.

              Joris, what he was asking here is that if he was able to use a bind or something to shoot normally without using the Game UI. I believe he doesn't want to avoid using the special attacks, but to know if he can "disable" it with those or something so he doesn't lag as badly as he does when using a Game UI item.
              No, you can't. If you bind or do something special to shoot in a different way; it will still count as shooting (First Click, for example) and the Game UI will detect it and trigger.+

              Also, the Game UI doesn't really get outputs from "Left Click" or "W key" but from the actions themselves "Shoot Weapon" or "Move Foward". So whatever you use for shooting the weapon or moving foward, it will be recived by the Game UI when you do so.
              Note that for using the "Rigth ClicK" function (Secondary attack) you need to be holding a weapon with a secondary function, or it won't work. Those are: The Knife, The Grenade (probably because it used to have a secondary attack on HL2), and the weapons with Silencer, Zoom or Burst Mode.

              If you are really concerned about lagging while playing, and you do in fact lag when picking a char; you can always chose to not pick one.
              • Agree Agree x 1
              • Apr 9, 2012
                While not being a character you can still use cool pokemon balls and assist throphies!