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zm_endless debate

Discussion in CS:S Zombie Mod started by tfreeman451, Dec 31, 2014

  1. Oct 11, 2013
    Hi everyone! I know this will be favored by many and hated by a good portion of the regulars on the server. Why is this map still in rotation?

    The win rate is 90% Humans to 10% Zombies. Here are the top 10 CT favored maps currently in rotation.

    1. zm_london_v1_0
    2. zm_base_winter_beta3c
    3. zm_novum_v4_sajakfix
    4. zm_gorodok_v1
    5. zm_forgotten_town
    6. zm_roy_highway
    7. zm_playtime
    8. zm_wtfhax_v6
    9. zm_endless_v1_0
    10. zm_lila_panic_beach_pf3

    Most of the above maps are usually complained about because of how big they are, how many secrets they have or how CT sided they are. With the exception of a few most are generally avoided by our donators/admins when choosing to nominate a map and generally get played when they're the first random nomination.

    That alone should not be a reason to discard a map from the rotation. The big issue I have with this map is how incredibly boring it gets because of how good a portion of the server has became at bunny hopping. There is already one (or 6 - however you want to count this) illegal spot because of people being able to bhop, run boost, and party fly to each other to spots that are extremely difficult for zombies to get to:


    But how do these spots get ignored?



    And some what this one:


    These are relatively easy spots to get to for anyone who knows basic bunny hopping maneuvers. But once you're being fired at it's pretty hard to go down that stairwell in the first picture and strafe onto the platform. Should players be punished for accumulating the skills that it takes to get there? I'm not sure - but should 95% of the rest of the server be punished by having to wait 3+ minutes for the round to end because they can't get to the 1 or 2 individuals in these spots? This is what happens almost every round.

    I'm going to rip some quotes from some recent illegal discussion threads:

    From the unpanic illegal thread:

    Tony the Tiger - "Bhopping gets the same treatment. It's a very difficult bhop to do. It's possible, but difficult (on ZM at least)"

    Tony assumed it took a run boost to get to a roof and Haoward proved to him he could bunny hop over there. And then this was a follow up by Tony a few posts later:

    "If it was a simple bhop, you'd have something here. But it's not. It takes a lot of practice to figure out, and first of all requires you to be able to bhop. Despite Harvey missing the edges of the spot, the edges are still illegal as well as the rest of the spot. It's the same reason we made the spots on endless illegal. it's possible to get to them by bhopping and runboosting, but it's still very difficult for the average player to do."

    A post by Taters in the same thread:

    "That was a good jump, but a regular player can't even make it into the fake sign at spawn without a lot of trouble and precise jumping. The spot is dependent on hitting a very precise bhop and even then being able to land the jump, which you just barely did. A good majority of the server can't bhop, so you're basically invincible against anyone that can't do it."

    A comment by Seeker more or less referencing to the perks a donator gets (higher jump)

    "But it is unbalanced. That's why we have illegal spots. If a regular player can not make the jump, it will remain illegal."

    From Momo:

    "If we simply pandered to the average player, half of every map would likely be illegal. There's certainly something to be said of taking the average player into account, but just as much stock is put into the above average player skill as well."

    Some good arguments for both sides. Now going over to the Endless illegal spot discussion here are a few more quotes:


    "Lots of players in pf know how to bhop. Whether they are on at the time of the map or not, we shouldn't say a spot is bad because not everyone can bhop. Learn to bhop. Or use the party system, this works wonders on this map."


    "Bhopping should never be a requirement for players to enjoy maps and our servers. Not to mention still a ledge spot."


    "Sure it does. Is it easy to learn? Sure. But you shouldn't have to know how to bhop just to play. It's an advantage for sure. But not something you should have to know how to do.

    Its zombiemod. Not bunny hop. You can bunny hop, but its not the original intent of the mod. Its not hard to learn how to do it, but its absolutely unfair for someone else. Just like that fucking run boost shit. It's an exploit of the game physics."

    Tony the Tiger:

    "Where i stand on the matter is that bhopping shouldn't be a requirement. Meaning, it shouldn't be all that you can do to get to a spot. If there are alternate ways to get to the spot, then sure. But it shouldn't be a requirement. Which is exactly why on my surf map there is a ZM teleport to take the Zombies who cant surf to crucial parts of the surf area, which they won't have to do any surfing at all if they don't know how to surf. Perhaps Endless needs something like that. Having the knowledge/skill of Bhopping should be rewarding to the human. Meaning, they are required to do it to get to SOME spots in the map, but NOT ALL spots. Then add an alternate route for only Zombies to use that don't know how to bhop. But that's just my suggestion, and was Retslag and many other admins suggestion when i made my surf map."

    With all of the prior discussion I don't see how these spots aren't considered illegal too. And if they were to become illegal then there isn't much point of this map being on the rotation anymore since there is only a handful of decent spots left.
  2. Dec 17, 2007
    The biggest reason the pillars on the first pic were made illegal was bc of the fact that you had to rb then pfly to get to them. After pfly has ended for the round, it's impossible for zombies to get there. The other pics if you're skilled at bhopping then you can get to them even if someone is shooting at you. It's happened to me w/player that are real good at bhopping a couple of times, where I was on the tower and a zombie was able to get by and get to the tower. I believe that's why they left the other spots legal on the map. The first pic you don't have to bhop at all, you just drop down to one of the ledges and rb then pfly, all the others it's simple bhop and if you're good enough you can avoid someone shooting at you.
  3. Feb 8, 2013
    Just because you can hit a slant and fly to a spot doesn't make you a bhopper, bro.

    I'm going to tell you this. I don't favor many of the maps you've listed, especially when the map favors humans more than zombies (maybe by a far lot), but then again, you can't always play a zombie sided map either, because majority of the PlagueFest Zombiemod players are players that actually wants to survive and play as a human. May sound surprising coming from me, but I do support the maps staying on the server, now saying, maybe taking off one or two. We already lack map variety. This saying that we play the same maps over and over and over and over again. How many maps can you count that's actually being rotated?
  4. Jul 20, 2010

    I think his point is spots on other maps have been made illegal because it required the ability to bhop a "skill"(laughable but ok) to get to them. So the average player that generally frequents our server wouldn't be able to get to said spot.

    I believe he's looking at this also from a balancing issue, the map has spots that are imba against average players and you get rounds where its a few people alive in one of the bhop spots and the rest of the players kinda of wait around. So for the average player this map isn't fun, but boring.

    A good example of what he's arguing about players being put off by a map where its a very high CT win %, would be:

    I have a artifact deck that I play with my friends and co-workers in magic, they won't play me if I have said deck because it will win 95% of the time against them and fairly quickly. People don't want to play maps or against certain teams, decks you name it if they stand a very small chance of winning since it takes the fun out of it for them.

    I believe that is what he's trying to argue and brings up valid points.
  5. Feb 8, 2013
    Not really making sense here because you just pointed out that a good portion are bunny hoppers, so why would these spots even be mentioned or even at the stairs of your thought?
  6. Jul 20, 2010
    We have tons of maps on ZM so we don't lack variety, its the people nominating maps that make it seem like we lack variety. You get into a cycle of the same 10-15 maps being played constantly
  7. Feb 8, 2013
    Well, that's partially what I mean. The same number of donators nominate the same fucking maps every god damn time I go in.
  8. Jul 20, 2010

    Mhmm it does happen, we could try extending the number of maps that need to be played before said map can be nominated again and see how that works.
  9. Oct 11, 2013

    You've twisted my words a bit. I said a portion of the server has become good at bunny hopping. And from there I have no idea what else you're trying to imply within my quotes.
    Post Merged, Dec 31, 2014
    I ignored his reply because it was pretty far off from what I was getting at, but yes, Badgriuel you are correct that this is a balance issue. Besides the handful of PF's population that can get to these spots the rest of the players run around in circles out of boredom waiting for the round to end. Watch it some time in spectate - it's quite the entertainment watching zombies just drop down trying to get to the platform while whoever is in that spot just messes around with an AWP knowing they won't be killed.
  10. Oct 29, 2010
    People always point out how good these bhop spots are, but in reality the only reason they don't fail as much as they should it because of friendly zombies, many players can get to those spots (a handful of which can get to those spots from multiple ways.) The interior of the main building holds MUCH stronger spots in my opinion.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Jul 20, 2010
      I've seen it first hand, part of why I made that thread to make those pillar spots illegal. The other reason they can get up there with just an AWP is mainly because the other people on that can bhop are their friends so generally they have to really watch for maybe 1 or 2 people that are actively trying to get them.

      Why I'm a fan of the old school maps, always fun and generally well balanced. Only way an imbalance happens on the older maps is if people build cades with a huge number of props but hey they took the extra time to add those props so good on them.
    • Oct 11, 2013
      I don't question that these spots are among the easier spots to get to when taking in the account of bunny hopping. Sit in spectate once as this map comes on - you'll see what I'm talking about. A majority of the server does not know where to gain the speed or which part of the ramp to hit to get to the humans.
    • Oct 29, 2010
      I guess what I'm getting at is that these bhop spots aren't the ones making the map human sided.
    • Oct 11, 2013
      Agreed on both fronts.

      Do we just let this spot be legal and say oh well to the majority of the server who can't get there? That's what I'm curious about
      Post Merged, Dec 31, 2014
      I see - I think I missed your friendly zombie comment. Sorry about that.
    • May 31, 2012
    • Oct 29, 2010
      • Funny Funny x 1
      • Wizard! Wizard! x 1
      • Feb 21, 2007
        I'll do w/e the community wants me to do. I know this map has been discussed before, but things change and discussions can always be continued.
        • Like Like x 1
        • Nov 2, 2011
          Just make a sajakfix version of this map and we all win.
          • Funny Funny x 1
          • Winner Winner x 1
          • May 31, 2012
            Map maker's input @Soft Serve might be valuable. I personally think the map is great and illegal spots should be removed; the map is designed to make these spots easier for people who don't know how to bhop (as Orange said, it doesn't really take a lot of skill to jump on a slanted slope and the entire map has no fall damage). Bracing myself for another Momo disagree :ROFL: what a silly goose.
          • Oct 13, 2011
            Why do you care if its CT sided. Oh wait.